Author Topic: The B-24J  (Read 926 times)

Offline earl1937

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The B-24J
« on: August 04, 2013, 12:52:41 PM »
 :airplane:THE B-24 LIBERATOR

Just as the Handley Page Halifax was overshadowed in the UK by its partner, the Avro Lancaster, so the B-24 never gained the popular appeal of its USAAF partner, the Boeing B-17. In fact, the B-24 was newer, more efficient, built in far greater numbers and, unlike the B-17, served on every front in World War II.

More effort, more aluminium and more aircrew went into the Liberator than into any other flying machine ever built. Nothing better underlines American industrial might than the fact that the prototype Liberator did not even fly until after the beginning of World War II, and the last (except for the PB4Y-2 model) came off the assembly line before the end of the war; yet, in between, deliveries of some 15 major variants totalled 18,188, or 19,203 including spares. This compares with 12,731 B-17s and 7,366 Lancasters.

The accomplishments of the Liberator were in proportion to its astronomic quantities; and, particularly in the matter of range, which to some degree stemmed from its having an unusually efficient wing, the Liberator gave the Allies capabilities they would not otherwise have possessed. Early in the war the first Liberators, in RAF markings, were the first aircraft in history to make North Atlantic crossings a matter of everyday routine. In 1942 a more developed version at last closed the gap in the western North Atlantic where U-boats had been able to operate beyond the range of other RAF aircraft. On countless occasions Liberator formations made attacks on targets that could be reached by no other Allied bomber until the advent of the B-29. Although primarily a heavy bomber, the Liberator was also a very effective fighter (in that it shot down something like 2,600 enemy aircraft), the leading Allied oceanic patrol and anti-submarine aircraft, and the leading Allied long-range cargo transport.



At the same time it was a complicated and advanced machine, leading to prolonged pilot training programs and on occasion to severe attrition. Not only was it demanding to fly, even to a pilot fully qualified on the type, but it was eventually cleared to operate at such high weights that take-offs became marginal even with full power on all engines. Flight stability was also marginal, and escape from a stricken machine was extremely difficult once the pilot or pilots had let go of the controls. Moreover, though more modern and in most ways more efficient than the B-17, the overloaded late-model B-24s were hardly any improvement over their more primitive partners, and several commanders, including 'Jimmy' Doolittle, famed commanding general of the 8th Air Force, preferred the old B-17.

In fact, the B-24s might have been B-17s, because in October 1938 Consolidated Aircraft Corporation was asked if it would set up a second-source production line of the Boeing bomber. Consolidated had moved just three years earlier from icy Buffalo in New York state to sunny San Diego in California, and was well placed to expand its large new plant. But chief engineer Isaac M. 'Mac' Laddon had already made studies for long-range bombers and was confident of producing a superior design. Part of this confidence rested on the wing patented by David R. Davis: this had a particularly deep section, with sharp camber and a reflex curve on the underside, and was almost as slender as the wing of a sailplane. Tunnel tests confirmed Davis's claim that this wing offered from 10 to 25 per cent less drag than ordinary wings, but no full-scale wing had flown. Laddon had designed a giant flying-boat, the Model 31, and this was to fly in spring 1939 with a Davis wing. Pending its measured drag figures he quickly drew a heavy bomber with the same wing and tail but a new fuselage with a futuristic smooth nose and tricycle landing gear. Under the mid/high-mounted wing were two bomb bays, each as large as that of a B-17.

The commanding general of the US Army Air Corps, H. H. 'Hap' Arnold, studied the plans of the Model 32 in January 1939 and told Laddon to go ahead, and "build a bomber that will fly the skin off any rivals." Consolidated received a contract for the Model 32, designated XB-24, on 30 March 1939. It was to be able to reach 300 mph (483 km/h), 35,000 ft (10670 m) and 3,000 miles (4828 km). The Model 31 flying-boat flew on 5 May 1939, and met the promised drag figures. Design of the Model 32 went ahead quickly, although it was drastically altered to have a conventional nose with the navigator and bombardier in the front and a side-by-side cockpit further back with a stepped windscreen. The first XB-24 (US Army serial 39-680) made a successful flight from Lindbergh Field on 29 December 1939.
Total production of the B-24D, excluding transports, was 2,738, 2,409 of these coming from San Diego. The most famous exploit of this model was the first of several long-range attacks on the oil refineries at Ploesti, Romania, on 11-12 June 1942 by a dozen aircraft from a special detachment under Colonel H. A. Halverson, which formed the nucleus of the 9th Air Force. Many others went to 8th Air Force bomb groups in England, making their first mission against Lille on 9 October 1942. No fewer than 37 RAF squadrons operated the equivalent Liberator Mks III (British purchase) and IIIA (Lend-Lease), mostly with the Martin top turret but retaining the Boulton Paul tail turret with four 0.303-in (7.7-mm) guns, in Coastal, Bomber and Far East Commands. Coastal Command also used the Mk V with chin and retractable ventral radars, ASV arrays, Leigh light, extra fuel and much special equipment which sometimes included eight forward-firing rockets carried on stub wings on each side of the forward fuselage. The B-24D was developed through block numbers up to 170, bringing in the Dash-65 engine and the Briggs-Sperry retractable ball turret (in place of the tunnel gun), which were to remain standard on subsequent bomber versions. Gross weight climbed to 71,200 lb (32296 kg), much heavier than any other Allied bomber except the B-29 and quite unanticipated when the B-24 was designed. Even the most gentle turns were best made on the autopilot; the controls were both very heavy and very sluggish, and at weights much in excess of 60,000 lb (27216 kg) any rapid manoeuvre (even to avoid a collision) was impossible.

One of the other bad traits of the 24 was the great wing that it had, was also easly set on fire with just about any kind of ammo! Flak in the Euopean theater was especially bad around some of the targets which the allies pounded and serveral were lost due to ack alone.

We are lucky to have someone in Aces High, who has a great deal of flying time in the B-24, his call sign is "Colombo" and is type rated in the B-24! <S>
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 01:21:07 PM by earl1937 »
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Offline Karnak

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 01:17:42 PM »
Lancaster pushed over 71,000lbs as well when it carried the 22,000lb bomb.
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 03:06:34 PM »
I find it easier to kill liberators than 17's. Bit liberators have a mor flexible payload
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Offline colmbo

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 06:46:43 PM »
The fire problem stemmed from chronic fuel leaks. In the fuselage between the wings was a fuel manifold where, if needed, the Engineer could switch between tanks to transfer fuel. Evidently it was akin to an old time telephone operator making manual connections. The fuel lines were oval in shape and tended to leak. (Imagine trying to get a good seal with a hose clamp.). The constant leaking led to them always keeping the bomb bay door cracked open to ventilate. Ever notice that many photos of damaged Libs have the fire centered at the wing roots?  Luckily the B24 I flew had a modern fuel system with foam filled fuel cells and quality fuel lines and fittings.

Ford was turning out a B24 every 55 minutes at the Ypsilanti, Michigan plant. Many of the veterans I talked to mentioned that the Ford airplanes tended to be of lower quality than the Consolidated built airplanes. There are subtle differences in the Ford airplanes such as window placement and sheetmetal panel shapes.

A great beast of an airplane, can be demanding to fly, a clumsy pig in ground handling and unforgiving of ham handed piloting but once you learn her quirks flying the Lib brings a great deal of satisfaction.

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Offline streakeagle

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 06:47:47 PM »
B-24 production numbers are easy to explain as half of them were built here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Run

With 18,000+ B-24s vs 12,000+ B-17s, that is 50% more production, how does that compare with overall loss rates (not just combat) ?

Despite their 50% greater production numbers and greater payload, it seems the B-17s still have some statistical advantages in wartime performance:
With a service ceiling greater than any of its Allied contemporaries, the B-17 established itself as an effective weapons system, dropping more bombs than any other U.S. aircraft in World War II. Of the 1.5 million metric tons of bombs dropped on Germany and its occupied territories by U.S. aircraft, 640,000 tons were dropped from B-17s. (Yenne 2005, p. 46)

But to be fair, the bomber generals loved the B-17 and only bought the B-24 because the needed every plane they could get and Congress made them buy it. So the stats game is much like the F-117 in Desert Storm: of course the sortie rates/bombs dropped numbers always favor the aircraft the generals want to promote since they get to decide which aircraft does what ;)

Crews are almost always loyal to the aircraft that brought them home, so their opinions are usually subjective. But no matter what someone feels, the B-24 was a much newer design that was better at everything except handling qualities and ruggedness. If I had to serve on one during WW2 and could choose, it would be a difficult choice. But I think I would have gone for the B-17 given the photos and films I have seen. Ruggedness and handling qualities are pretty damn important if you are going to be flying through heavy flak every day and having to return/land with less than ideal weather and mechanical conditions.





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Offline Karnak

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 06:57:26 PM »
Boeing was very conservative on wing loading, giving the B-17 a lot of lift to spare while being a very robust aircraft.  These things probably made it more survivable when damaged than the B-24 was.  However, I am just guessing as I haven't see the relevant numbers.

For the Lanc and Halifax you see a distinctively higher loss per sortie for the Halifax than the Lancaster, though the Halifax was apparently significantly easier to bail out of when it was going down.

In both cases history has not been entirely fair, making leading ladies of the B-17 and Lancaster while the B-24 and Halifax get poor second billing despite massive contributions of their own.
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Offline earl1937

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 10:16:39 PM »
B-24 production numbers are easy to explain as half of them were built here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willow_Run

With 18,000+ B-24s vs 12,000+ B-17s, that is 50% more production, how does that compare with overall loss rates (not just combat) ?

Despite their 50% greater production numbers and greater payload, it seems the B-17s still have some statistical advantages in wartime performance:
With a service ceiling greater than any of its Allied contemporaries, the B-17 established itself as an effective weapons system, dropping more bombs than any other U.S. aircraft in World War II. Of the 1.5 million metric tons of bombs dropped on Germany and its occupied territories by U.S. aircraft, 640,000 tons were dropped from B-17s. (Yenne 2005, p. 46)

But to be fair, the bomber generals loved the B-17 and only bought the B-24 because the needed every plane they could get and Congress made them buy it. So the stats game is much like the F-117 in Desert Storm: of course the sortie rates/bombs dropped numbers always favor the aircraft the generals want to promote since they get to decide which aircraft does what ;)

Crews are almost always loyal to the aircraft that brought them home, so their opinions are usually subjective. But no matter what someone feels, the B-24 was a much newer design that was better at everything except handling qualities and ruggedness. If I had to serve on one during WW2 and could choose, it would be a difficult choice. But I think I would have gone for the B-17 given the photos and films I have seen. Ruggedness and handling qualities are pretty damn important if you are going to be flying through heavy flak every day and having to return/land with less than ideal weather and mechanical conditions.






:airplane: I would, upon reflection and looking back at history, would have chosen the B-17 to, but at the time, the B-24 was very attractive to those young brave men and they liked the speed and extra bomb load, from what I read about the battle history of the 24. If, as Colombo points out, had they put the foam filled fuel cells and 20MM tail and turret guns, it would have had a much better loss record than it did have. At any rate, it made a valuable contribution to the war effort in all theaters of the war! <S> to the 24"s
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Offline Skyguns MKII

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 12:30:57 AM »
One of the other bad traits of the 24 was the great wing that it had, was also easly set on fire with just about any kind of ammo! Flak in the Euopean theater was especially bad around some of the targets which the allies pounded and serveral were lost due to ack alone.

The constant leaking led to them always keeping the bomb bay door cracked open to ventilate. Ever notice that many photos of damaged Libs have the fire centered at the wing roots? 

prime example in this video, 53 seconds in  :salute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lioRCye2Dug

Offline Volron

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 01:08:58 AM »
Seems that a few think it was a bomb that brought down that B-24.  To me, it looks like a DIRECT HIT from flak.  If you look closely, you'll see the smoke/fuel going at an upward, forward motion as well as see the metal blow outward on the top of the wing.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 04:25:18 AM »
Seems that a few think it was a bomb that brought down that B-24.  To me, it looks like a DIRECT HIT from flak.  If you look closely, you'll see the smoke/fuel going at an upward, forward motion as well as see the metal blow outward on the top of the wing.

It was hit by flak.  Only the navigator, 2nd Lt Wallace F. Kaufman, was successfully able to bail out of the plane but was captured and executed by the Japanese.  In 2001, Kaufman's executioner was tracked down and interviewed which appears in the documentary "Last Flight Home".

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Offline Skyguns MKII

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Re: The B-24J
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 09:51:47 AM »
It was hit by flak.  Only the navigator, 2nd Lt Wallace F. Kaufman, was successfully able to bail out of the plane but was captured and executed by the Japanese.  In 2001, Kaufman's executioner was tracked down and interviewed which appears in the documentary "Last Flight Home".

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how interesting in the saddest way.  :eek: