Author Topic: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated  (Read 632 times)

Offline RotBaron

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the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« on: August 17, 2013, 11:17:20 PM »
Warning:

If lore and legend lead you to great romantic ideas about the glory and menace of WWI's most famous character, then do not watch. This will ruin it. And don't read anymore of the thread.  



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7asOpl-5-tM

Short of it, watch the first few minutes, at 24mins for several minutes, and the final ~3mins.

The long of it, even with as much effort as they put into this investigation, there exists probability yet that they have concluded incorrectly. Yet the likelihood is certainly in favor of the ground gunner. What they fail to come back to is that the one they conclude as most likely is within mere seconds of the Dr's assessment that he would have lost consciousness at ~1min. Post more than 1min the medic arrived and states von Richthofen was conscious and spoke.

Still very interesting, not quite sure is unequivocal though.  
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 11:23:26 PM by RotBaron »
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline Lab Rat 3947

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 12:47:35 AM »
Thank you for the post  :aok


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Offline Chalenge

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 01:21:10 AM »
I have seen and read dozens of investigations about this very event. None of them agree, many facts of one investigation are not present in others, and so on. Only one thing is for sure: you don't want to be the one German caught low over a group of Australian gunners.
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Offline MrGeezer

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 04:44:33 PM »
Back in the late 70's and early 80's I did a ton of research on the evidence (then available) on the subject.  Much of the best research I found was Dale Titler (Book:  "The Day The Red Baron Died").  he was doing interviews with those who were on the ground and air that were eye wittnesses on that day.  Many of the Australians (MvR flew right over their guns) were getting old and passing away so there was, a kind of immediacy as to getting their stories. 

The doctor that did the autopsy concluded that the .303 bullet entered his right side and continued to the spine and then exited about 2 inches of the left nipple.  That's a pretty nasty thorasic would and most organs, including the lungs and heart are in that same line.  Back in the late 70's the best medical opinion I could get said that death, while not instantaneous could have taken up to 2-3 minutes from the time he was fatally shot.  The bullet would to his leg was considered inconcequential as it did not hit an artery. 

Titler (who I interviewed on the phone numerous times) was of the opinion that Franklin and Popkin's machine gun was the dealer of the final bullet...however...he was insistant on the fact that the ground forces, in the area of Sally-le-Sec that day used .303 rounds in both machine guns as well as rifle modes...in other words, it could have been an extremely lucky shot by a soldier (most likely Australian) on the ground that day with a rifle.  In other words...the man who did the most lengthy, exhaustive, detailed, research including all possible angles of fire thought that the angle of the fatal would was indeed fired from the ground and not from air-to-air combat and could only narrow the possible "smoking guns" to two or three possibles.

I met and spoke at length with the von Richthofen family gardener (Schweidnitz, Silesia--Now Swidbonitza Poland) but never spoke about Manfred's death out of courtesy.
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 05:01:21 PM »
Been thinking about this ever since I saw this most recent video, the one I linked...

But the reality being that it's a near certainty that he was killed by a shot from the ground is not ever going to catch on. Even if it's the truth, which we'll never really know, it's just not very glorious.

von Richthofen has filled the minds of young children to adults ever since WWI became a more romantic notion than anybody who fought in it would say it was. To give in to the thought that he was not killed in some spectacular air to air duel that the victor narrowly escaped from does not SELL. It does not literally sell: movies, books, etc.  and it does not sell in our dreams/imaginations, collectively we just don't want it to be that way...


Must have been fun work and investigation though. How did that come about, just a hobby?
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 07:00:36 PM »
WOP May, the pilot of the a/c the Baron was chasing went on to be a famous bush pilot. Roy Brown was May's boyhood friend and was born 30 mi from here.

Interesting that May attacked the Baron's brother Wolfram and the Baron went to his aid just as Brown went to May's aid when the Baron began chasing May.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 09:19:27 PM »
Doesnt matter what he died from. His legendary exploits in the air are what he is best remembered for
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline icepac

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 11:07:33 AM »
Some pilot earned a proximity kill?

Offline smoe

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 02:27:04 PM »
The bullet must have been fired from an alien gun from outer space. That is the only thing that could of taken down the Baron.  :noid

Offline Stellaris

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Re: the Red Baron's demise re-investigated
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2013, 11:03:39 AM »
 :noid  <-- This icon is clearly faked.  The main rotor on the helicopter is the wrong length, and as it passes you can see that its shadow interferes with the reflections on the tinfoil hat.  This would be possible only if the helicopter were passing between the light source and that hat, but if that were true we would also see the shadow of the hat on the individuals face, which we don't.