Current Setup

[Saintaw]

Ach yaaaaaaa zomething else than Shpitsfire to shoot at !

WTG Pyro!

[hazed-]

I also like the idea of introducing the USAAF planes to AH but please bear in mind that when the 8th arrive in section 3 they get the b17 and p47d11 and axis get a g6!

some info:

P47B....56th FG received june 42.MOVED TO ENGLAND january 1943 (this is the B not D   )

P47D....END OF 1943.

109f series was 1940 to 1942
109g series started in 1942 onwards
190a5 was early 1943, the A6 by june 1943,the A7 by december and the A8 in january 1944

so what period is this supposed to represent?

if its mid 1943 then there should not only be no p47D's but also no B26s as there were only 'marauder 1A's in north africa in Nov 1942 and no mention of b26s in Euro theatre until the italy/sicily invasions.I know we dont have 190a6/a7 but we are again facing aircraft of later years.LETS not mention the ju88 eh?.If we have the p47d's and b17G's they 'at best' are late 1943 early 1944(14th october 1943 the b17s in use were b17E's and B17F's which both had no chin MGs and were vulnerable to HO attacks.this is why the G was called for as loses on this raid were very high) I think the LW should have what they had in late 1943-44 namely the 190a8 (jan 1944).

then we have period 4: THE MASSACRE OF LW YEARS more like:

P38L......1944 (late?)
P47D11....late 43(best)-early 1944
P47D25....later than d11 i presume, so 1944
P51B......first operational use in europe 13th dec 1943 all p51s before were alison type
P51D......1944 (late?)
B17g......1944 (early?)

well if its late 1944 LW should have available the 109K series the 190A8-F8 were out from jan1944 and mid 44 respectively and the 190D9 was just enteringservice in late 1944-early 45.

If we have these planesets please give each side what they had at the time.
From what i can see for the majority of these sections the LW have planes that are 6 months to a year behind the allies when in fact this to-and-thro of one side gaining advantage then losing it is poorly represented!.In MA i didnt really care as there were alsorts flying around BUT in CT I want it HOW IT WAS.Not some fantasy matchup with me flying my 1943 planes against USAAF 1944 types.

Ive had enough of that in the MA.So please reshuffle those a bit?

for example arado (operational 10th july 1944)
Ta152 (november 1944)

perk them if you feel they shouldnt have been there in numbers, by all means, BUT give us the chance to fly them ok?

the current matchups IMHO give allies advantages from section 2 onwards and i think it should swap back and forth more.lets learn what the later models meant in improvements? the p38s were a lot less powerfull at first than the P38L as were P51s with the alison engines etc.
I realise planesets restrict choice but if you are going to add a p38L in place of an earlier version then do the same for the other side.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[Sancho]

Originally posted by hazed-:
P47B....56th FG received june 42.MOVED TO ENGLAND january 1943 (this is the B not D   )

P47D....END OF 1943.

Bzzt!  Incorrect!  The 56th deployed to England with brand new P-47Cs.  By June of 1943, the first P-47Ds were available.  There really isn't much difference in between the early P-47D variants, so the -11 is a good catch all early jug, especially since it doesn't have a paddle-blade prop.

[funkedup]

It's '43.  
P-47D-11 is playing the role of all 1943 P-47's in the ETO.  B-26 is the only Allied twin engine bomber we have.  England-based B-26's were operating over Europe constantly from May 1943 until the end of the war.  Neither the Jug nor the Marauder we have are significantly better than what the Allies actually had in 1943.

Overlord represents the Spring and Summer 1944.  Starting at the point when the 2nd TAF and 9th AF started really hammering the Continent.  You'll notice the USAAF gets Mustangs WELL AFTER they were actually in service.      

Invasion of Germany is Fall and Winter 1944-45.  Maybe not the best title.  It probably should be "Invasion Of Europe Other Than France" but that's too long.      P-38L was virtually identical to a late P-38J.

Final Days is Spring 1945.  We'll probably see more Ar 234s and Ta 152's in use than were ever in use at any one time during WW2.  If you have evidence that Ta 152's were assigned to any combat unit before the Spring of 1945, you should present it.

You can nitpick exact dates all you want.  The fact remains that the timelines are accurate whenever possible, and if anything the substitutions are biased towards the Luftwaffe.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[hazed-]

well then re read your books on what LW planes should be available!

if the p47D11 is 'representing' earlier models then DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE PLEASE.
 1943 190a5,190a6,190a7 were available.

nearest we have is the 190a8 so ill take that thanks.

in the red corner.........p47d11 (representing an earlier less powerful version)
in the BLUE corner..........Fw190a8 (representing fw190a6/a7)

lets get ready to rumble!

this isnt nit picking funked ..i just dont agree and neither do my references in books, with 'some' not all of these choices.

3.8th airforce arrives
USAAF
p47d11-representing earlier p47s
B17G-representing B17E-Fs (no chin guns)

LW
190a5- representing 190a6/a7 (both of whom had same loadout options as 190a8)

this is really my main concern and bearing in mind the LW get nothing really new in this period I think it would be in the best interest of all concerned to introduce the 190a8 to give the LW something to tackle the d11 with.
The USAAF STILL get an entire period with the p51d (overlord)which will absolutely rule the skies, just as it did for nearly a year in AH before HTC introduced the dora in MA.
Im sorry but i dont see this as an unreasonable request.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[funkedup]

That's not a bad point.  Not much difference at all between Fw 190A-6 and A-8.  Pyro has made a few changes from what I initially requested, and I hope he makes that one.

I wish we had an earlier P-47, an earlier P-38, some earlier USAAF/RAF bombers, a Fw 190A-2, a Bf 109G with MW 50, a Ju 188 etc.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[Sancho]

Originally posted by hazed-:
well then re read your books on what LW planes should be available!

if the p47D11 is 'representing' earlier models then DO THE SAME FOR THE OTHER SIDE PLEASE.
 1943 190a5,190a6,190a7 were available.

Sounds like a good idea.  I'm all for it, if the substituted plane is a good match as the -11 is for the early Ds and C jugs.

[funkedup]

Hazed I edited a bunch, didn't realize you were reading the board at the time.  Sorry about that.

[hazed-]

lol same here funked    

its kinda surreal aint it  

btw the p38g (1,325-hp) p38j (1425-hp) p38L (1475-hp)(combat rated 1600-hp at 26,500ft)
however small we must remember the differences.Also the P38L was the first to have 5in rockets available.
I know im getting pedantic but THATS THE LW's GREATEST WEAPON!!!   hehe

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]

[funkedup]

PS LW gets G-10 to fight the Mustangs.  And make no mistake, Mustangs did dominate the LW for a significant period before (and after) the Dora was introduced.  With unperked G-10's everywhere, I doubt this will be the case in our arena.

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[funkedup]

B-17G is bothersome.  It would be nice to have a B-17F.  But G's were in production in July '43 and in service with the 8th AF in the Fall.  And again the overall capability of the plane doesn't change, just an extra couple of guns up front.  I didn't think that was enough to warrant the omission of the Fort from the late-43 plane set.  As a LW, I think you'd be salivating to get a crack at the Dicke Autos anyway.    

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[hazed-]

agreed funked. the P51 did dominate the LW for that period but there were less and less LW in the air as we pressed into germany not least because of the fuel shortages.
BUT in AH there is no shortage,there is no lack of pilots, or for that matter there is no huge numbers to sway things.
If in WW2 the germans had as many doras as the USAAF had p51ds would things have been different?  

this is what id like to find out  

[funkedup]

We WILL find out.  

[Buzzbait]

S! all

The fact is, with the current planeset, the only period which can be simulated correctly is Approximately June `44 to the end.  And even then, we are missing a lot of the twin engined aircraft available, most notably the Me110G, Me410.

Until we get the Spit IX LF, 110G, 410, P-38J, the 109G6 with MW-50 and a P-47 Razorback with paddle blade we can`t do the most intense period of combat, which was January to May `44.

That`s the way it is.

As far as the D11 and when the USAAF pilot got their D model Jugs:

The USAAF Groups were equipped with P-47C`s in November of `42.  But they saw no combat for a long time, spending their time in training.  The first combat mission flown by P-47 equipped USAAF Fighter groups was in April `43.  That was in P-47C`s.  They did not fly another mission until a month later.  By that time the first D models were arriving and the existing C`s were being converted to D spec.  By July of `43, the groups were re-equipped with either D models or C models which had been upgraded.

The P-47B was never flown in Europe.  It equipped the 56th FG in New York State when they were in training there.  These planes were left behind when the 56th shipped out to England.

The D11 we have here is closer to the real `47`s  seen in `43.  It isn`t the same as the Razorbacks seen December to June `44 because it doesn`t have the Paddleblade. It is 300lbs underweight according to HTC.

The solution is to model the D11 with the correct weight, and two options for the prop.  One with paddle blade, one without.

[Buzzbait]

S!

Another point if I wanted to nitpick....

The FW190D9 was not equipped with MW-50 until January of `45.  This was due to a shortage of the kits.  Until then they had lower performance.

But of course, here the 190D9 arrives in August `44 with MW-50.