M36 Tank Destroyer

[Chalenge]

Without a shadow of a doubt the largest battles ever fought between armored forces was on the eastern front and so if you want to have historical battles that's where the game is lacking both in the planeset and vehicle park. There is easily a few dozen armored vehicles that could be justified and added to the game just in that theatre, granted a good number of them are US made vehicles.

I don't think the size of the battle matters whatsoever. We will never see the numbers the Eastern front saw, so they will never be recreated accurately (and the facts of the battle are now lost to history as well).

[33Vortex]

Agreed, it is just obvious that you are looking at this from the US perspective only, as are a great number of AH players. The two major theatres were, the Soviet-German war and the US-Japan war. The US/GB led offensive in Africa and later France was more than just a sideshow, but there were greater factors in play to decide the outcome of the war such as industry (in that regard the allied air offensive was of significance) and manpower. The landgrab was mostly a matter of securing Europe for the next act, the cold war which was much closer in perspective than what most history books give you a hint of.

Of course, this can be dissected and argued against if you so wish but what the heck... I want AH to expand in historical events gameplay and more historical planes and vehicles would provide for that. That's not to argue against the M36, it has a place in the historical context.

[SmokinLoon]

Agreed, it is just obvious that you are looking at this from the US perspective only, as are a great number of AH players. The two major theatres were, the Soviet-German war and the US-Japan war. The US/GB led offensive in Africa and later France was more than just a sideshow, but there were greater factors in play to decide the outcome of the war such as industry (in that regard the allied air offensive was of significance) and manpower. The landgrab was mostly a matter of securing Europe for the next act, the cold war which was much closer in perspective than what most history books give you a hint of.

Of course, this can be dissected and argued against if you so wish but what the heck... I want AH to expand in historical events gameplay and more historical planes and vehicles would provide for that. That's not to argue against the M36, it has a place in the historical context.

So in other words you'd give a big     to adding the Su-100, or even the Su-85?   

[33Vortex]

So in other words you'd give a big    to adding the Su-100, or even the Su-85?  

Of course, but I guess this thread is more about making priorities which vehicles need to be added before others more than anything else. A historical point of view does not justify the M36 before others, but a pure MA gameplay perspective might if you are so inclined to like US armor.

Personally I think the Soviet-German conflict needs to be expanded on because that's where the game is lacking in both planes and vehicles. The US enjoy a great planeset in the game, and justifiably so but if the developers seek to expand the scope of the game and attract more players (Russian and German perhaps?) Russia is a huge market to expand into and if they're smart... there's no limit really. I mean sure there were no carriers used on the ostfront, but there were no gigantic armor clashes in the Pacific either. Currently we have plenty of CV action, and I don't want to take away anything from that, but the GV - aircraft interaction can be expanded upon in terms of support (mission requests by GVs, CAS? and extra points awarded if completed) and GV combat can also be expanded upon. To give a few examples, vehicles or mobile troop HQs that would enable players to set up mobile spawn points and fire support (arty) for GVs.

Do it right, couple with a translated russian version of the HTC site (maybe one in German too) push a bit of marketing and boom they might double their number of customers in a few months time which would give them that much more punch in development. Just in idea... but I really think HTC is stale in their marketing.

[Chalenge]

Agreed, it is just obvious that you are looking at this from the US perspective only, as are a great number of AH players. The two major theatres were, the Soviet-German war and the US-Japan war. The US/GB led offensive in Africa and later France was more than just a sideshow, but there were greater factors in play to decide the outcome of the war such as industry (in that regard the allied air offensive was of significance) and manpower. The landgrab was mostly a matter of securing Europe for the next act, the cold war which was much closer in perspective than what most history books give you a hint of.

Of course, this can be dissected and argued against if you so wish but what the heck... I want AH to expand in historical events gameplay and more historical planes and vehicles would provide for that. That's not to argue against the M36, it has a place in the historical context.

I'm not looking down at anyone. That fact is that the German brute tanks are in the game, the Russian T-34/85 ('upgunned' T-34), and the M4's which you could say are also Russian tanks through lend-lease.

While there is still a need for more armor from Russia, so too is there a need for more American armor. That being the case there is nothing wrong with asking for the M36. In fact, since tanks are now centered around late war armor it is exactly where the wishes should be focused. As much as I would like to see the battles from the mid-war era better represented, it should not be the main focus until such time as the user base begins to build to stronger levels. Right now I think that late war is the prime attraction for users and so that will be the focus of armor wishes.

I myself would like to see the Cromwell tank introduced. In fact, all of the Cruiser line interests me, but I know the Cromwell would be so very successful for users. I very much appreciate the tank, having spent some ten hours creating a 3DS Max model which is still mostly unfinished (and far too detailed for AH). I also have an interest in the M3 Lee/Grant tanks, but I know that it would be useless in LW. So, the most likely tank on the American side for LW use is the M36, although I could ask for the Pershing instead.

[33Vortex]

Well this is sortof what I'm talking about... People tend to forget about the fact that the eastern front was very active from summer '41 already, even before the US entered the war. This means that there's a whole range of early-mid war GE and SU tanks not in the game. The PzIII would be a good start, but tanks like the T-28, BT-5, BT-7, T-60, T-70 (the list goes on...) saw action by the thousands and on the GE side light tanks like the PzII were still in use.

The Soviet Union was the largest manufacturer of armored vehicles in the world even before the war started. Hitler seriously did not believe the figures presented to him by german intelligence before the invasion, and later commented that if he'd known the estimated number of tanks was accurate he'd called off the attack.

Am a little tired of the typical MA mentality of the big gun buzz and US late-war perspective, so that's why I'm posting like this. WW2 was not just about Germany fighting a losing battle, there was a storm released in '39 that shocked the world for at least three full years. Those years were fought and won not by big guns, but superior tactics.

[save]

I'm not looking down at anyone. That fact is that the German brute tanks are in the game, the Russian T-34/85 ('upgunned' T-34), and the M4's which you could say are also Russian tanks through lend-lease.

While there is still a need for more armor from Russia, so too is there a need for more American armor. That being the case there is nothing wrong with asking for the M36. In fact, since tanks are now centered around late war armor it is exactly where the wishes should be focused. As much as I would like to see the battles from the mid-war era better represented, it should not be the main focus until such time as the user base begins to build to stronger levels. Right now I think that late war is the prime attraction for users and so that will be the focus of armor wishes.

I myself would like to see the Cromwell tank introduced. In fact, all of the Cruiser line interests me, but I know the Cromwell would be so very successful for users. I very much appreciate the tank, having spent some ten hours creating a 3DS Max model which is still mostly unfinished (and far too detailed for AH). I also have an interest in the M3 Lee/Grant tanks, but I know that it would be useless in LW. So, the most likely tank on the American side for LW use is the M36, although I could ask for the Pershing instead.

Tank battles where to a big extent ( like the airwar) a numbers game. Pit 4 Shermans against and expect to lose 3 was the norm.

In AH going American you want to stand a chance against the best tanks, and those in numbers where German tanks and one Russian (IS2).

Unfortunately British / American planners realized too late that German tank designs where well ahead in design, and panic designs / up-gunning existing tanks became de facto, and the result was a myriad of new designs coming to front 1945, Centurion even missed the war totally.

M4 was a reliable tank, and could be produced with speed and keeping spare parts for one type instead of Germans double digit numbers.

Fighting a defensive battle always give you the advantage of choosing where to fight, and prepare for it.

In my tank career I always preferred the reliable tank we had IKV91 in front of the the harder hitting heavier S-tank.
 I commanded them both and saw the plus and minuses with them:
S-tank range was short, it did not have a turret, it was considerably slower, but if hit they could take 10x more punishment than the IKV91.

Also they could shoot at ranges we only could dream of, and had automatic loader that made 15 shots per minute possible.
Well we did not have to rely on roads, we could go over snow and always flank a MBT, pretty much act as  tank commandos often carrying a group of  combat soldiers with us on the rear of the tanks for close-in protection.

Later helicopters negated some of the advantage we had, flying with the Russian tank columns with AT-rockets.

In AH you don't have to care for reliability, range, and how fast different tanks can go through terrain, the only thing you want is low profile, thick sloped armour, and a long high calibre gun with good optics, and some speed.

 

[33Vortex]

...the only thing you want is low profile, thick sloped armour, and a long high calibre gun with good optics, and some speed.

Spellcheck just kicked in: Jagdpanther

[Chalenge]

Am a little tired of the typical MA mentality of the big gun buzz and US late-war perspective, so that's why I'm posting like this. WW2 was not just about Germany fighting a losing battle, there was a storm released in '39 that shocked the world for at least three full years. Those years were fought and won not by big guns, but superior tactics.

The arenas have zero resemblance to WWII. You would do well to remember that. 

I can always continue to use the T2, T1, Panther, Jagdpanther, etc. and I can live with that. But if every wish is going to be denied based on what happened in WWII, then you can expect me to tell you exactly why we don't need that.

The M36 will not be the last wish even if it is added.

[Wmaker]

While there is still a need for more armor from Russia, so too is there a need for more American armor. That being the case there is nothing wrong with asking for the M36. In fact, since tanks are now centered around late war armor it is exactly where the wishes should be focused. As much as I would like to see the battles from the mid-war era better represented, it should not be the main focus until such time as the user base begins to build to stronger levels. Right now I think that late war is the prime attraction for users and so that will be the focus of armor wishes.

Funny,

...and here you started a thread asking for earlier tanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,350677.15.html). And when I told you they wouldn't really be used in the LWMA, scenario use for GVs is minimal and that EW and MW are close being empty. To which you replied:

Just another example of selective reception. NEWS FLASH!!! Early war tanks are also about historic events.

...to which I replied:

Adding planes historic events in mind is far more fruitful than adding tanks. As said, very very few events use GVs at all. People who participate speacial events want to fly.

Early tanks would be far bigger "hangar queens" than early planes.

...and then you decided to tell me that:

This statement disqualifies you from any further contribution in tank threads for all time.

*shrugh*


Nice to see you actually grasping it after all. No need to thank me, you're welcome!

[33Vortex]

The arenas have zero resemblance to WWII. You would do well to remember that. 

Of course, and that's exactly what reduces the MA experience to a level closer to 'just another game'. What AH do right is the FSOs and historical events, that's what's really unique about it. The rest is just vanilla.

[Oldman731]

In my tank career I always preferred the reliable tank we had IKV91 in front of the the harder hitting heavier S-tank.
 I commanded them both and saw the plus and minuses with them

If you get the opportunity, would you please post in the O-Club some more details of what these two were like?  In the early 1970s I was convinced that the S-Tank was a really clever design.

- oldman

[TDeacon]

If you get the opportunity, would you please post in the O-Club some more details of what these two were like?  In the early 1970s I was convinced that the S-Tank was a really clever design.

- oldman

+1

I wonder what sort of gun depression it could generate, and how that affected its ability to go hull-down (to the extent that one can do this and still shoot).   

MH

[33Vortex]

Ok I get this sudden urge for a IKV91 now...  

Back then at least we had numbers, today we have nothing. No defense on Gotland whatsoever but yeah it was a brilliant idea to put 20 tanks on the island in storage but without their crews. Might as well just give them away freely to whomever set their foot there first. Our politicians make no secret of it, there is no intention at all to defend the island and in all honesty the capacity just isn't there. Very smart, very smart indeed. Just setting us up for a sucker punch and to be the punch bag in the next war, like Poland in WW2.

[SmokinLoon]

... I myself would like to see the Cromwell tank introduced. In fact, all of the Cruiser line interests me, but I know the Cromwell would be so very successful for users. I very much appreciate the tank, ...

I'd certainly vouch for the Cromwell, just keep in mind it would have the speed of the T34/76, the main gun of the M4/75, and the armor of the Panzer IV.  In order for it to be used successfully in the MA it will need to have the late war HV AP ammo available, and I'm not ever certain the British used the APCBC.

What would be best, imo, is for HTC to add the Cromwell with both guns available like they did with the Pzr IV F.  That way the Mk I with the 6 Pdr and the Mk IV with the 75mm would both be available.  Both of those guns are capable enough under 2000 yards (fire rate, AP ability, and 6X zoom sight) to put them in to play if the Cromwell's speed is utilized.  It certainly isn't a stand up and fight it tank out like the Panther, it would need to use speed and cover.