Author Topic: The CT Icon Issue  (Read 3120 times)

Offline hblair

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4051
      • http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
I agree in that we need to do what most people like. I'd hate for it to turn into a watered down HA though. As far as icons, All these neat icon solutions require programming. We'll prolly end up with the current short icon setup, for a while anyway.

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »
Just a few questions in case anyone knows.

1.  What distance does a fighter dot show up?

2.  What distance does a fighter dot change to a more details representation of the fighter?


It seems to me that inbetween these two stages, we virtual pilots are getting almost zero information about a cons relative movement (towards or away) and speed and very little information about its type from the aircraft itself.

I think if we ask real pilots, they would tell us that at these distances some of the above information can be inferred.


F.

Offline CRASH

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 186
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2001, 10:27:00 AM »
Ecellent post, I fully support this position.

CRASH

 
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup:
Upside of short/no icons:
- You have to search for bandits.  No giant neon sign pointing them out at ranges where it was very easy to miss them in real life.  Spotting the other guy first had a huge effect on combat results in WWII, but with long icons it is rarely a factor.
- No using magic laser range finder to judge closure rate at ranges where such judgement would be nigh in possible in real life.  This allows a lot of precise ACM at ranges where a WWII pilot would be struggling just to see the enemy.  There is a whole school of AH tactics based on exploiting this "feature".
- IFF limitations.  With long icons you can tell friend from foe at quite long range.  In WWII it happened many times that pilots got within guns range and were still unable to tell friend from foe.  IFF range has a huge effect on how you start an engagement.
- Formation flying is rewarded.  It was fairly easy to get lost from your wingman or leader in WWII, even if they were still within visual range.  They could get far enough away that you couldn't read their distinctive markings.  Lots of pilots report this happening.  With long icons you can read the names of friendly pilots at 5+ miles.  So it's just about impossible to lose your wingie, and you can fly combat spread at distances which were unheard of in the war.

Downside of short/no icons:
- A plane at a given range appears a lot smaller on a monitor than in real life.  At some ranges where you can easily spot a plane in real life, or judge closure range in real life, you are looking at a blob of pixels that is harder to spot and harder to judge closure/aspect.
- Due to graphical limitations, planes will disappear against a background of similar color.  In real life you could spot the movement or a reflection, but in the game it blends in pefectly.  Without an icon, a plane that would be plainly visible in real life could be invisible.

One must balance all these factors..  I think the 3.0k icons (AH scenario settings) are pretty good.  Certainly I haven't heard a peep of complaint about them in the TOD series.  

I would like to try reducing the ranges by about half, and/or turning off the range indicator, and seeing how it works.  But as I have repeated many times, I think the CT should do experiments one at a time.  Let's get the arena established as basically an Axis vs. Allies MA, and then try out these changes one at a time and see what the response is.

[ 12-05-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

Offline marcof

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 69
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2001, 01:45:00 PM »
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, oh yes icon ranges,zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoh ok well yes, listen if its not broken leave it alone just give us a decent map, decent set up, NOT US NAVY VERSUS LW, (thats was the sadest excuse i have ever seen in any Flight sim!! even beats WW2OL flight model!)

And lets us QUALITY pilots get on with it!!!,

Basicly will someone fix it, and please do it soon.

Heheheheh iam bad  :D
Marcof.

Offline funkedup

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9466
      • http://www.raf303.org/
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2001, 02:28:00 PM »
Marcof check your history.  FAA fought the Luftwaffe with Corsairs and Hellcats and Avengers, and USN had a few engagements with them too.

Offline marcof

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 69
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
Yeah true Funked, However come on....would you not agree that a Malta or stalingrad set up might be better??? and more inviting , anyways not looking for long discussion on this, as iam sure you would rather spend your time working on our new CT arena!
Marcof.

Offline hblair

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4051
      • http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2001, 04:23:00 PM »
Read the motd when you enter the arena marcof. The current setup is just a temporary placeholder.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2001, 05:53:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by marcof:
...And lets us QUALITY pilots get on with it!!!...
Marcof.

That is EXACTLY the attitude I was referring to in the second part of my first post in this thread.

  :(
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2001, 10:12:00 PM »
"Quality" .. hmm..

 ...

 hmmm...

 ..

 nahhhh~  :D

ps) I haven't any quality, but still, using eyes to madly scan around to find something seems more fun to me  :)

Offline marcof

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 69
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2001, 02:58:00 AM »
Yip quality.....hehehhe come on guys read my post and see that it was ment in jest!!!

Man are you a touchy lot or what!   :p
Marcof.

(winding up MA arena pilots since 1999!)

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: marcof ]

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2001, 03:15:00 AM »
I loaded up Mig Alley for the first time over the weekend (I know, I'm behind the times..)

Seems to be a most workable icon system. You only get icons around the edge of the windscreen, once the bogey is in your forward hemisphere, no icon.

Something for the future, perhaps?

Offline Sundog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1781
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2001, 01:23:00 PM »
All I can add is, I remember a LONG way back in AH when gruops of us use to go into the SEA and fly no icon battles (it was based on the honor system). Udie had control of DAR in the arena and would shut it down. This team was Axis, that team was Allies and we went at it. Definitely had some of the most fun ever in AH during those set-ups.

GL with the set-up guys!

Offline Regurge

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 354
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
Should the CT generate a faction that feels it necessary to blow their own horns about how superior they are because they are "CT" pilots, I'd absolutely not support it.

I've seen it happen before and the divisive influence really tainted the environment.

I'd hate to see that spread to AH; I'm almost certain (from reading some of what has already been written) that it will.

Thanks for "listening".

I'd bet on it too. But how would it be any different than the current "QuAkErZ vs. accountants" squeakfest in the MA? So long as there is more than one style of play there will be those that think their style is better, and feel the need to tell everyone about it. In the end what difference does it make? Not one engagement I've ever had was won with a BBS or buffer rant.

Maybe I'm just a wacky guy, but I never understood people who quit flying because they didn't like what was said on the BBS.

Back on topic (nice discussion btw). I can only argue that, for me, short/no icon is just more fun. In and of itself, I'll take your word for it that short/no icons is less realistic. But I believe the overall outcome may be more realistic, when you take into account our unrealistic advantages like no fear of death, vast experience, etc.  

Like hblair said, those no icon fights were a blast. I had differenciate plane type using visual cues like wing/fuselage shape. Granted the ID might have occurred at much greater ranges in real life, but with long icons there's no need for ID at all. What it comes down to is those fights had by far the closest resemblance to the combat stories I've read about and for me that = fun.

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2001, 08:51:00 PM »
In my opinion, "friendly only icons" offers the best gameplay.

Our squadron has been using "friendly icons only" in H2H training since the icon settings were introduced. We've also had a few squadron duels with 5 GIAP, with "friendly only" as well as "no icons" -settings.

Camo
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline streakeagle

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
      • Streak Eagle - Stephen's Website
The CT Icon Issue
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2001, 10:59:00 PM »
Since the goal is increased historical accuracy...

We should all sell everything we have, pool our money together, buy as many warbirds as we can afford, and duke it out with real planes and real bullets  ;)

But more seriously, I will never find icons preferable to no icons. Regardless of any penalties due to graphics rendering and hardware limitations, no one ever had a glowing neon billboard saying "I am the enemy, I am flying plane x at range y, and my range rate is z". I am willing to degrade my ability to recognize landing gear position and paint scheme by a relatively small margin for the sake of losing the icons. You want 6k neon billboards, fly MA. Let us psycho "realism" fanatics do our own thing whatever that turns out to be until it fails and is shut down or replaced  ;)
i5(4690K) MAXIMUS VII HERO(32 Gb RAM) GTX1080(8 Gb RAM) Win10 Home (64-bit)
OUR MISSION: PROTECT THE FORCE, GET THE PICTURES, ...AND KILL MIGS!