Hardcore Arena

[Puma44]

many different levels of hardware capability and eyesight.

Just like in the real world of aviation.  You make my point.

The guys who think they should be eliminated are usually elitists who resort to insulting everybody who has a different opinion and ignoring any data that doesn't support them.  These are the guys who are killing the hobby by actively driving out anybody who doesn't meet their level of dedication to "purity".

So, are you going to start with name calling and generalizations?  Be careful about calling anyone an elitist.  Come up with specific names who are "elitists"  and the specific data they are ignoring.  If you can't, your statement is nothing more than a puff of smoke in the wind.

[ink]

if you think icons make up for the eyes...sorry but that is wrong...especially up close...

a friggin icon is in fact a huge neon sign over the plane....so maybe it makes up for distant viewing...

but once the con is close...the icon makes it imposable to lose sight.....how is that realistic?

a fighter just glancing around is gonna easily miss a plane that is below......

the fact that most painted there planes with a dark top and a light bottom....gee I wonder why they did that...
hmmm could it be that they wanted to be harder to spot........

there is NONE of that in AH period.... You cant miss the plane...why???? because of the icon.


get a friggin clue people.(not that krusty will ever get one thats one guy stuck on stupid)


and no I do not promote a no icon arena...I would like to see icons just become a dot within 800.....and fade away once the bandit is within 400 yards. but I am an elitist. 

and to say that most cons that were killed were not looking around looking for bad guys......

[Saxman]

I disagree that the icon makes it impossible to miss. A propely camo'ed aircraft can still disappear into the terrain making it harder to pick up its outline. You'd still be able to track it, but you certainly can't use the icon to aim.

[ink]

I disagree that the icon makes it impossible to miss. A propely camo'ed aircraft can still disappear into the terrain making it harder to pick up its outline. You'd still be able to track it, but you certainly can't use the icon to aim.

yes you are right its not imposable, I should have said(and did earlier) "virtually imposable" to lose sight

[Karnak]

if you think icons make up for the eyes...sorry but that is wrong...especially up close...

Up close is where I would particularly like to see changes to icons.  Under a certain distance I would like the icon to change to just a red bishop, knight or rook symbol, perhaps even just a red dot.

a friggin icon is in fact a huge neon sign over the plane....so maybe it makes up for distant viewing...

Agreed.

but once the con is close...the icon makes it imposable to lose sight.....how is that realistic?

Didn't say it was.  I said it was more realistic than no icons, which it is.

a fighter just glancing around is gonna easily miss a plane that is below......

That is one of the flaws of the icon system.  I'd like a phase in time of, perhaps, 1 second.

the fact that most painted there planes with a dark top and a light bottom....gee I wonder why they did that...
hmmm could it be that they wanted to be harder to spot........

Indeed, but that doesn't justify simulating pilots who are legally blind, which is what no icons does.

there is NONE of that in AH period.... You cant miss the plane...why???? because of the icon.

Yes, it is a choice between unrealistic option A that acknowledges the shortcomings of computers vs even more unrealistic option B that pretends those problems don't exist.

get a friggin clue people.

Already done.

and to say that most cons that were killed were not looking around looking for bad guys.

What do you mean by this?  It isn't clear.

[ink]

Up close is where I would particularly like to see changes to icons.  Under a certain distance I would like the icon to change to just a red bishop, knight or rook symbol, perhaps even just a red dot.
Agreed.
Didn't say it was.  I said it was more realistic than no icons, which it is.
That is one of the flaws of the icon system.  I'd like a phase in time of, perhaps, 1 second.
Indeed, but that doesn't justify simulating pilots who are legally blind, which is what no icons does.
Yes, it is a choice between unrealistic option A that acknowledges the shortcomings of computers vs even more unrealistic option B that pretends those problems don't exist.

Already done.
What do you mean by this?  It isn't clear.

there is no way in hell a guy who knows he is going to find enemy..... is not looking around for said enemy.

I do agree that icons even the playing field....and thats why they are needed in the MA. but for a "realistic" arena they should be off.

I like the idea of just a small red dot or like you say a small knight/bish/rook symbol once the con gets say within 400.  that would be better for immersion. and still give an icon up close.

[guncrasher]

if you think icons make up for the eyes...sorry but that is wrong...especially up close...

a friggin icon is in fact a huge neon sign over the plane....so maybe it makes up for distant viewing...

but once the con is close...the icon makes it imposable to lose sight.....how is that realistic?

a fighter just glancing around is gonna easily miss a plane that is below......

the fact that most painted there planes with a dark top and a light bottom....gee I wonder why they did that...
hmmm could it be that they wanted to be harder to spot........

there is NONE of that in AH period.... You cant miss the plane...why???? because of the icon.


get a friggin clue people.(not that krusty will ever get one thats one guy stuck on stupid)


and no I do not promote a no icon arena...I would like to see icons just become a dot within 800.....and fade away once the bandit is within 400 yards. but I am an elitist. 

and to say that most cons that were killed were not looking around looking for bad guys......

this would kick me out of the game along with a bunch of guys.  that is the reason I cant go to the ava, I cant tell the difference between a shadow and the plane itself and I play with all settings on.

I was in fso 3 or 4 weeks ago and I got into a fight with a 109, I was able to get behind it and heard the call from my squadies that there were multiple 109's and low bombers.  I looked around trying to find them while trying not to lose the 109.  finally the 109 dove to the deck from about 3k and only saw the ju87's when the icon light up, and they were in front of me.

when looking at the film they must have been at least 30 cons within 4 or 5k from me.  I never saw them.

you can call the icon unrealistic but it is done for gameplay's sake.  that neon sign allows a lot of us to play.


semp

[ink]

this would kick me out of the game along with a bunch of guys.  that is the reason I cant go to the ava, I cant tell the difference between a shadow and the plane itself and I play with all settings on.

I was in fso 3 or 4 weeks ago and I got into a fight with a 109, I was able to get behind it and heard the call from my squadies that there were multiple 109's and low bombers.  I looked around trying to find them while trying not to lose the 109.  finally the 109 dove to the deck from about 3k and only saw the ju87's when the icon light up, and they were in front of me.

when looking at the film they must have been at least 30 cons within 4 or 5k from me.  I never saw them.

you can call the icon unrealistic but it is done for gameplay's sake.  that neon sign allows a lot of us to play.


semp

ya I understand that, thats why I don't advocate a no icons arena

[Karnak]

there is no way in hell a guy who knows he is going to find enemy..... is not looking around for said enemy.

It happened at times.  Saburo Sakai shot down a P-39 that was flying straight and level for a long time.  Robert Stanford Tuck got bounced by a pair of Bf109s over the North Sea in a Hurricane Mk IIc and said he had been lax on looking around.  While he did end up having to bail out the Hurri's durability and luck allowed it to survive and then for him to shoot down his attackers, though at the time one was only a probable.

As I said, most pilots to whom the "did not see his attacker" comment is going to refer to are guys who were target fixated as Bob Doe had been or who simply didn't see their attacker.  This doesn't even mean that they never saw the guy, which they may well have as the formations approached each other, but did not seem him as he maneuvered into position and then attacked.

The need to constantly look around was not nearly emphasized as much as it ought to have been and many green pilots died that way.

[guncrasher]

ya I understand that, thats why I don't advocate a no icons arena

"and no I do not promote a no icon arena...I would like to see icons just become a dot within 800.....and fade away once the bandit is within 400 yards. but I am an elitist"

ink, so no icons from 800 yards doesnt make it a no icon arena? 




semp

[ink]

It happened at times.  Saburo Sakai shot down a P-39 that was flying straight and level for a long time.  Robert Stanford Tuck got bounced by a pair of Bf109s over the North Sea in a Hurricane Mk IIc and said he had been lax on looking around.  While he did end up having to bail out the Hurri's durability and luck allowed it to survive and then for him to shoot down his attackers, though at the time one was only a probable.

As I said, most pilots to whom the "did not see his attacker" comment is going to refer to are guys who were target fixated as Bob Doe had been or who simply didn't see their attacker.  This doesn't even mean that they never saw the guy, which they may well have as the formations approached each other, but did not seem him as he maneuvered into position and then attacked.

The need to constantly look around was not nearly emphasized as much as it ought to have been and many green pilots died that way.

with out a doubt it did happen....but there is no way every 352 cons that Erich Hartman shot down were not looking around....and thats just 1 guy......and most he shot never saw him.

I wonder what his kill tally would have been if he had a 30 foot neon sign over his plane.

there is just no way that they all were not looking around....if your green and you know you are going into enemy territory...you will craning your neck like a banshee....I know I would be.

hell WW1 pilots wore a scarf so their necks didn't get rubbed raw from what.......looking for bad guys.....


but ya icons are more realistic......

question....what the hell happened to common sense .....if it is so common how come almost nobody has it.

seems so simple to me I  trying to figure how guys actually think icons are more realistic.

"and no I do not promote a no icon arena...I would like to see icons just become a dot within 800.....and fade away once the bandit is within 400 yards. but I am an elitist"

ink, so no icons from 800 yards doesnt make it a no icon arena? 




semp

at 800 a small red dot....again I just said I like that idea..... I didn't say thats how it "should" be....see the difference

[guncrasher]

at 800 a small red dot....again I just said I like that idea..... I didn't say thats how it "should" be....see the difference

I understand you dont have a quarter, you have a 25 cent coin 


semp

[Karnak]

Bob Doe had to figure it out for himself.  Nobody had told him he had to be looking around, that was the flight leader's job and he was just supposed to maintain formation with the leader.  I am sure he was not unique.

While the game is not real and is a far cry from reality, it does offer some lessons that would apply to reality and the need to look around constantly is one of them.  I suspect that you undersell the effect that this game has had on your thinking in terms of WWII air combat.

Even in AH where death is just a lesson in what not to do we see absolutely massive levels of target fixation.  Some, I am sure, is because death doesn't ultimately matter thant much so the fixated player is gambling that his fixation will pay off with a kill before he dies, but a lot is going to just be the natural human tendency to focus on what they are trying to do.

[Perrine]

err can't OP just set up and host his own in custom arena?
just advertize it in MA and DA arenas...


If i were OP i'd go far to just set up:

- create a map with just 2 bases... with 7k airspawn
- contemporary fighter vs fighter (spit 5 vs ki-43, yak-7 vs 109F etc, spit 1 vs 109E etc)
- real short icons
- cockpit view only
- global stall limiter off
- MA-style gas consumption
- friendly+enemy bar radar
- friendly dot radar only

[ink]

I understand you dont have a quarter, you have a 25 cent coin 


semp

 

thats quick....

but seriously I don't advocate the no icon arena I know not everyone has the system or the eyes for that...so no I know it shouldn't be done in the MA.(that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see a small dot up close)