Author Topic: The K4 and gun pods  (Read 15254 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #75 on: September 04, 2013, 03:30:24 PM »
Mk108 - 650 rpm
MG151/20 - 750 rpm

Offline Lusche

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #76 on: September 04, 2013, 03:32:45 PM »
MG151/20 - 750 rpm

As non-synchronised motor cannon,  780-800
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Offline GScholz

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #77 on: September 04, 2013, 03:48:39 PM »
:headscratch:
You sure?

Yes. :) Both guns are about 10-12 rounds per second/ 650-750 rounds per minute.
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Offline Zacherof

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2013, 03:49:28 PM »
Yes. Both guns are about 10-12 rounds per second/ 650-750 rounds per minute.
I was looking at the wrong gun at my notes.
Disregard my statement.  :salute
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Offline GScholz

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2013, 05:01:40 PM »
Good luck with your lobbying efforts ;)
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Offline Denniss

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2013, 12:47:01 AM »
There were hundreds of Bf109G-6/U4s built that didn't have MW-50 injection but had the MK108 cannon. Nothing "Frankenstein" about it.
Actually ~1700 G-6/U4 + ~700 G-14/U4 and ~400 G-10/U4

Offline Krusty

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2013, 01:16:28 AM »
There were hundreds of Bf109G-6/U4s built that didn't have MW-50 injection but had the MK108 cannon. Nothing "Frankenstein" about it.

Those planes didn't have the low-rudder, the thin cocpit framing, the early style armor, and generally looked like later-era planes. We got an early-war external graphics aircraft with a late-war gun, but still had early-war performance.

That's why it was a bit of a frankenstein.

Offline bustr

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2013, 01:18:14 AM »
Just remember. In the G6/U4 armorers manual is an addendum telling the armorer that when MG151\20 gondolas are mounted, to wire the firing of the gondola and MG onto the same button. The MK108 ballistics was so bad the pilots demanded this. Our G14 with MK108 and gondola should be setup this way. When the MG151\20 is mounted in the engine the MG and HUB 20mm are wired together with the gondola on a separate button.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2013, 01:34:34 AM »
More like hundreds of K-4s with the 20mm. The K-4 we have is not really representative of those that flew operationally anyway. The tail wheel should be fixed and the main landing gear doors removed. This would reduce top speed to about 425-430 mph.

Oh, you mean like this one?
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/401Squadron/9B.jpg

Oops, that has gear doors. So do these:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/744194-2/Bf-109K4-WNr-330209-Italy-1944
http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7439/9036196994_24ae18faa9_m.jpg
http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/212938-5/13jg27-109k4

In fact, I just spent 10 minutes combing google, scrolling through many pages of Bf109K-4 pictures in both Osprey and Squdaron publications, and in EVERY photo, probably nearly 100 or so, all but 1 109K-4 has its gear doors on. That ONE was a completely stripped hulk of a frame canibalized for parts.

The only time they removed main gear doors was during the muddy or snow season because it could jam the gear and clogged the wheel wells. That wasn't even universal, and varied from field to field. This goes back all the way to the beginning of the war, and is NOT something specific to Bf109K-4s.

I think you are confusing the outer gear doors which were removed almost universally, as seen here:



These are not present in AH and that drag is already modeled, as it is on all other 109s with openings for the wheels.

As for 'hundreds" of K4s with 20mm? Uh.. wishful thinking much? Only some of the early ones had them... Mk108s were by this time plentiful. They were even converted at the depot level to Mk108s before distribution to the pilots. There was a quoted notation from some field armorer or something at the time commenting about how they were getting more new 109Ks, and these had the Mk108s installed from the factory. The wording implied they were doing it themselves, and now they didn't have to anymore.

Very few 109Ks had the 20mms, and much like the wing gondolas, it's likely that none saw combat in that configuration. In 1945 Mk108s were quite plentiful. The problems developing and producing the Mk108 were from 1943 and 1944. By summer of 1944 those problems were long gone and the gun was tried and true, and being put on every airframe available. They were THE primary cannon on any figher plane in the war. At least... that is until the Mk103 could replace that (which never happened).

Offline Wmaker

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2013, 03:02:29 AM »
Those planes didn't have the low-rudder, the thin cocpit framing, the early style armor, and generally looked like later-era planes. We got an early-war external graphics aircraft with a late-war gun, but still had early-war performance.

That's why it was a bit of a frankenstein.

Been discussed before. AH G-6 has a glass armor not the earlier steel one. Only external difference between AH G-6 and many many of the U4's is the fact that AH G-6 lacks the D/F-loop antenna. Then again AH G-6 also currently has a retractable tail wheel which real G-6s never had either.



The above is how Bf109G-6/U4 looked in those production batches mentioned by the caption. For example in the 440000 production batch, 1419 G-6/U4s were built between 9.1943 - 8.1944.

(Sources: Prien & Rodeike / Hannu Valtonen)

There's absolutely no excuses left any more why AH G-6 shouldn't have the MK108 back.


As for 'hundreds" of K4s with 20mm? Uh.. wishful thinking much? Only some of the early ones had them... Mk108s were by this time plentiful. They were even converted at the depot level to Mk108s before distribution to the pilots. There was a quoted notation from some field armorer or something at the time commenting about how they were getting more new 109Ks, and these had the Mk108s installed from the factory. The wording implied they were doing it themselves, and now they didn't have to anymore.

Very few 109Ks had the 20mms, and much like the wing gondolas, it's likely that none saw combat in that configuration. In 1945 Mk108s were quite plentiful. The problems developing and producing the Mk108 were from 1943 and 1944. By summer of 1944 those problems were long gone and the gun was tried and true, and being put on every airframe available. They were THE primary cannon on any figher plane in the war. At least... that is until the Mk103 could replace that (which never happened).

What is your source for the above???

For example, regarding the availability of the MK108, authors (Japo's 109K book) T. Poruba and A. Janda have come to exactly opposite conclusion.

So Krusty again, what is your source that MK108s were plentiful?? Where did you see that mention you talk about?
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Offline Debrody

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2013, 05:06:16 AM »
Guys... GScholz is right, the mk-108 eats its 65 rounds in like 6 seconds, while on the G6 i had an about 17 seconds firing time for the 200 rounds.

Titan: the fact that You cant aim the mk-108 perfectly (i cant either) does not mean that those two guns had different ROF. That inaccuracy and ballistics are only take effect on the effective firing range: it was about 400 yards for the G6 (for me), and like 200-250 yards for the K4. But! Took effective snapshots even at 400+ with the 262, also at 500-600 in the Dora. Ammo count and the amount of the flying lead/exlosive is a deciding factor too, but thats an other story.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2013, 10:41:00 AM »
Krusty, those small door are the ones I was talking about. I do not consider the surfaces attached to the landing gear itself to be doors. The rest of your post is not worth commenting.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2013, 11:34:17 AM »
Yup Krusty is confused between land gear covers and landing gear doors. Most doors have a hinge.

Offline Krusty

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2013, 08:55:52 PM »
Milo, gshulz, the "covers" you are talking about are considered the landing gear doors, just as much as the hinged parts are. Call them covers, or doors, the semantics of it don't matter. Considering they are the only covering we have on our K-4, and you were saying the covering on our K-4 shouldn't be there, one can only assume you were making the statement that these shouldn't be there.

gshulz, if you read my post you would have noticed I also pointed out that HTC has already modeled the aircraft without the outer-hinged doors, and that drag is already a factor in this game. This is directly worth commenting about because YOU'RE the one saying what we have isn't representative... When some of your points are not logical, it is worth commenting on.

Wmaker: Thanks for the clarification of the glass armor. I was mixing up my details for a moment. There was a very legitimate reason to remove the 30mm at the time. Of the 7500+ G-6s built, only 1500 or so received the Mk108, and those were predominantly in 1944. That leaves almost a year where the G-6 served that we couldn't use it (again, at the time) because the 30mm gun option totally unbalanced it. It was like subbing a 110G for a 110C. Checking the numbers, in the entire first year of production, a smaller percentage received Mk108s than did 109Fs that were capable of carrying gondolas. In all of 1943, only 181 G6/U4 were delivered. Of those, the first 60 were developmental and still working out how to install them. It was only after the 60th that the weapons were installed on the production lines. Of those, the first batches were shipped without cannons and everything had to be worked out with testing, especially ground-firing tests. These were not combat craft. The number of G6/U4s in 1943 to see any actual combat is probably smaller than a statistical margin for error.

You, yourself, once said that the graphics on our 109G-6 are almost entirely an early model, save for the glass armor. I pulled up the quote. You said if that armor were changed it would totally be an early model. You said that was only put in at player request after seeing screenshots of the metal armor. That suggests the intent was for an early model, since it originally had the metal armor. Further: considering that most G-6s that did receive a Mk108 did so in 1944, it makes more sense that these G6/U4 would have 1944-specific performance, such as MW50 (which became common place in Summer 1944). That would be more fitting of a G-14 designation. There are probably a few other performance enhancements through 1944 (higher takeoff settings, less restrictions on power ratings for the engine, etc). Looking at HTC's speed chart it definitely looks like we have an early variant, as it's much slower than a normal (read: "later") g-6 ought to be. At 1.42ata and 2800rpm a clean G-6 should easily break 400mph. Ours is at least 10mph too slow to represent a 1944 G-6.

NOW, we currently have a CM command tool that will allow disabling of certain loadouts in the SEA events. In theory, you could add the 30mm. However, overall isn't it far more desirable to have a period-specific model with period-specific (and representative?) armaments? Such as the Spit Mk.Vb? And then, when you need a later-era armament option, you can simply choose another airframe specific to that? Such as the 1942-era Spit Mk.IX? Instead of adding the Mk.IXs weapons loadouts to the Vbs airframe? I feel that our G-6 doesn't need a Mk108 option, and IMO based on HTCs efforts and intent it is clear they wanted a time-specific variant which didn't have one.

The answer is: yes, it is more desirable to have specific time-frames in mind when modeling any particular plane variant. It is less desirable to have weapons spanning multiple time-frames on a fixed-time plane variant.


P.S. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Pyro or somebody saying the tail wheel on our G-6 is purely a graphics issue, and the flight model is still built upon a fixed tail wheel.


P.P.S. Mk108s did get off to a rocky start, but by Summer 1944 they were so common that EVERY plane in the arsenal was carrying them. It was the primary armament on every fighter designed (unless the Mk103 was the primary -- in which case often the Mk108 filled in because that wasn't ready). From 190A8s to 190D-9 and later marks, to all subsequent Bf109 variants, to the Ta152s, to to 110Gs, to almost all the figher jets, to the Ta154, He219, Ju388, even the what-if pipe dream planes were being designed to carry the Mk108s. Not to mention every night fighter had at least a couple pairs of them (often designed with 2 or 4 firing upwards, and 2 firing forwards). There were enough of them that not only did they put them on every fighter plane currently in use, they also exported them to allies. The Hungarians even got Mk108 upgrade kits to keep their aging Bf109s competitive against the allies. I would suggest that logistics became more of a problem, rather than supply. The guns were available, but getting them where they were needed ON TIME may have been difficult. There were many cases where they had to be converted after leaving the factory. Even later K-4s initially had to have a small number converted to Mk108s.


edit: typo fix
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:00:03 PM by Krusty »

Offline Butcher

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Re: The K4 and gun pods
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2013, 11:47:36 PM »
Krusty has a point about scenario driven loadout, great post btw krusty.
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