Author Topic: Black Powder  (Read 1459 times)

Offline Triton28

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2013, 09:59:49 PM »
The two guys in that video struck me as being less than brilliant.

Do they even understand what the set trigger is for? Also, they really need a starter ball in their kit.....

(edit: This starter ball in similar to mine, although mine is 30 years old....)
(Image removed from quote.)

Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson.  Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker.  And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire.    :)
Fighting spirit one must have. Even if a man lacks some of the other qualifications, he can often make up for it in fighting spirit. -Robin Olds
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2013, 10:16:12 PM »
Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson.  Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker.  And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire.    :)

I may have quoted the wrong video.... I was referring to the two dilbert country boys being unsafe with a Hawken .50...... Sorry....

I meant this one, linked to yours.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EsgoTsIBlo
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 10:18:52 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline mtnman

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2013, 10:36:50 PM »
It seems that most flint guns have faster lock times than percussion guns... Important in minimizing motion between the sear releasing and the powder charge detonating.

Then again, in wet conditions, I'd prefer the percussion rifle. Push on a cap, wipe some lube/grease around the cap on the nipple and it will fire even after an afternoon in drizzle or rain. Not so sure I'd be as fortunate with flint...

I've often hunted with a flintlock for extended periods in the drizzle, and have found it to be not that much of a worry.  I've never had an issue with delay or misfires while hunting in moist/wet conditions, but that could be an entirely different story if the rifle was fouled and reloaded, and then left to sit for a while.  It does come down to paying attention to details of course.

I just keep the lock tucked up under my arm while carrying or still hunting, and have a cow's knee that I may occasionally use while sitting.  I do have the waterproof style pan on my rifle and pistol (but not on the Bess), and that helps if you get an occasional drip of water that just happens to hit the lock.

One huge advantage the flint has over percussion in moist conditions (IMO) is that I can take a momentary glance at the lock area of my weapon and know that I'll have positive ignition.  A percussion lock doesn't give you that option.  With a flintlock you really need three things to guarantee ignition.  A sharp flint, a clean frizzen, and dry powder; all three of which can be verified with a glance and even corrected if necessary in a few seconds.  

Range conditions don't accurately represent hunting conditions, at least in my experience.  At the range, I regularly shoot a lot and allow my flint to get so dull until it doesn't spark all that great before I break down and knap it.  Repeated shooting builds fouling, and some of that is of course on my frizzen, again hindering spark.  If it's humid, wet, drizzling, or raining the fouling pulls moisture into the pan and bore, moistening the priming and main charge.  I've never had that moisture prevent ignition, but if I let the loaded gun sit long enough between shots I'm sure it would...  I do regularly clean between shots to keep things clean and consistent, but the gun is far dirtier than it would ever be allowed to get in a hunting situation.  I have less-positive ignition at the range than I do in field conditions, because I'm not as careful with ignition details at the range.

A flint gives me 40-50 shots before it gets dull, at which point it takes a few strokes to knap a fresh edge (not done while loaded, obviously).  

When I hunt, I always hunt with a fresh edge, and dry fire a few times prior to loading to verify I have a heavy spark.  If the frizzen is skimmed-over with powder fouling, it can easily prevent or reduce your spark as well.  Again, in a hunting scenario I just make sure it's clean.  Sharp flint and clean frizzen means there will be plenty of spark...

When it comes to dry powder, that's easily verified by flipping the frizzen open.  That allows me to verify that my priming is dry, and in addition I can see a kernel or two of the 2F main charge in the vent.  

Dry kernels visible in both locations, along with a sharp flint and a clean frizzen means there's gonna be a bang when I pull the trigger.

And of course it's a direct line between the pan and the main charge; no corners to go around.

Percussion locks don't allow that type of verification.  Even with a fresh, clean rifle you have the potential for a little bit of crud, oil, or grease in the nipple or bolster to block the spark from getting to the charge.  If you have a spotlessly clean rifle, you run the risk of oil or grease, and it just takes a little to cause problems.  If you fire a cap or two prior to loading you mostly remove that potential, but add the potential for a flake of soot or fouling to be introduced in there somewhere...  Even during the loading process you may have some "clumping" of powder in the bolster area (I can visually discount that potential with a flintlock because I can see the kernels in the vent).  I've never hunted with a percussion gun, but I have friends that do, and have friends that have missed opportunities due to those factors.

Percussion guns can obviously be very reliable, of course, but I've seen far more mis- and hang- fire issues with them as a whole than with "decent", well cared-for flintlocks.  Unfortunately, many of the flintlocks on the market aren't all that great.  They have poor frizzens, poor geometry, and are poorly tuned.  Even good locks are often poorly loaded, or loaded with synthetic powders just adding to the nightmare.  It's really little wonder that so many people are scared off by them.  Even good flinters are poorly loaded in the movies so that they appear more dramatic when fired (the delay is actually exaggerated for the movies; the Patriot and The Last of the Mohican's are easy examples).

In reality, "late" flintlocks were highly refined, highly effective ignition systems.  Flintlocks were in military use for how long?  250 years?  The military seldom makes use of a weapon without doing some serious tweaking and refinement...  Give 'em 250 years to perfect a system and it's no wonder it got to be pretty danged good.  When percussion locks came into play there was surprisingly little "rush" to adopt them in the military or for home/frontier use.  They were a new "fad" of course, but only saw military use for maybe 30 or so years(?) before quickly being replaced by cartridges.  Percussion just wasn't the system of choice long enough to have the bugs ironed out.

The true value of percussion wasn't a drastic improvement over flintlocks, it was that the technology led to the invention of the primer.

I'm obviously biased, but I honestly consider the 1820's to 1840's flintlock to be superior to percussion.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline mtnman

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2013, 10:45:44 PM »
Oh , One more question . Powder or pellet's or does it make a difference ?

The pellets in our area run about 4x the cost of an equivalent quantity of loose powder.

They're usually a pellet of synthetic powder with a thin base of easier-to-ignite powder at the base, and are designed to be ignited from the bottom/rear by an in-line ignition. 

They can be difficult to ignite with a side/traditional lock, which may lead to misfires and hang-fires.

The pellets can be stacked as well (2x 50 grain charges = 100 grain charge) and often come in 30 and 50 grain options.  That gives you some options with loads, but may require you to purchase both boxes to experiment with (did I mention they're 4x the cost of loose powder around here?).

Optimal accuracy may not be possible with the pre-sized pellets either.  Your rifle may shoot most accurately with a 25gr or 35gr charge, but if you only have 30gr or 50gr pellets...
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline 68valu

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2013, 10:50:15 PM »
Awww c'mon... it was Hatchet Jack and Jeremiah Johnson.  Ol' Hatchet was laid up with a female panther for a few years... dude had to be off his rocker.  And Jeremiah, well, he's just a mountain man extraordinaire.    :)

Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?


                                                                                                       68valu
Flying since tour 84

Offline mtnman

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2013, 10:54:53 PM »
Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?


                                                                                                       68valu

Wasn't it Johnston?
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2013, 04:03:59 AM »
I used to shoot with a mountain man club. Start shooting BP and you'll never go back to a rifle. They wanted me to join but I had to much going on. They had their rendezvous where you had to only have pre-1840 gear on you and with you. What fun.
"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline mbailey

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2013, 05:29:04 AM »
Jeremiah Johnson is actually a distant relative of mine. He was nicknamed Liver eating Johnson.
Guess why?


                                                                                                       68valu

Because he was not that friendly to the native americans?


To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it  :aok
Mbailey
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Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2013, 06:39:49 AM »
Isn't it more politically correct to say 'charcoal based powder' instead of calling it BLACK?  :devil
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Saxman

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2013, 07:08:30 AM »


To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it  :aok

There was a story in one of the BP magazines a couple years back about a rifleman during 1812 who was picking off British officers during some siege from well over 200 yards with his Kentucky rifle. The story was written by one of the lucky officers who did NOT get shot at, because every time they saw his rifle swing up, one of them went down with a clean headshot.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline uptown

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2013, 07:10:47 AM »
Never crossed my mine to do that . Well have to remember that . Good tip . Plus I got a bunch of 409 caps from reloading .
uptown is that one a .50 ?
Yessir that's a Knight LK-93 .50 cal. Also on the subject of keeping your primer dry, I went this route http://www.knightrifles.com/209-primer-loading/  .....these slip over the 209 shotgun primers.
I shot 2 pellets (50 grains each) with this just because it's quicker.....that's with a 300 grain jacketed sabot. I prefer loose powder in everything below .50 cal.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 07:19:06 AM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis

Offline uptown

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2013, 07:27:15 AM »
Because he was not that friendly to the native americans?


To jump on what mtnman said about accuracy and the smaller calibers.....i watched a gentleman out at our range shoot eggs with his 32cal BP rifle (New Hope style i think) he was shooting them beyond 65yrds and making scrambled eggs with every shot....some of the finest marksmanship ive ever seen in my life, and i was sure to let him know it  :aok
The first day I took my .32 cal Crockett rifle out of the box I stepped off 100 paces and nailed a beer can 2 for 2. I just upped the powder charge from their suggested 20 grains for 50yrds to 30 grains. The thing about my little rifle is it's so damned heavy that is easy to keep it steady and on target. It's by far the best shooting BP rifle I've ever owned.
Lighten up Francis

Offline Flench

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2013, 04:58:57 PM »
The pellets in our area run about 4x the cost of an equivalent quantity of loose powder.

They're usually a pellet of synthetic powder with a thin base of easier-to-ignite powder at the base, and are designed to be ignited from the bottom/rear by an in-line ignition.  

They can be difficult to ignite with a side/traditional lock, which may lead to misfires and hang-fires.

The pellets can be stacked as well (2x 50 grain charges = 100 grain charge) and often come in 30 and 50 grain options.  That gives you some options with loads, but may require you to purchase both boxes to experiment with (did I mention they're 4x the cost of loose powder around here?).

Optimal accuracy may not be possible with the pre-sized pellets either.  Your rifle may shoot most accurately with a 25gr or 35gr charge, but if you only have 30gr or 50gr pellets...
So I am putting to much powder in mine then (.54) . I am shooting 150 gr of powder with a 500 gram lead ?

OH thats right uptown . 209 not 409 , lol . I all way's did get that mixed up . No wonder the guy back in the day looked at me crazy when I ask for 409 ,lol .I do it all the time lol
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:05:10 PM by Flench »
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Offline mtnman

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2013, 05:12:13 PM »
So I am putting to much powder in mine then . I am shooting 150 gr of powder with a 500 gram lead ?

I wouldn't say that.  The charges I listed were hypothetical.

I'm able to load up to 120gr in my .54 rifle, only about 80gr in my .75 Brown Bess.

The correct charge for your particular firearm depends on a lot of variables, not the least being safety.  Using 2F powder your charge would be different than with 3F; caliber matters, barrel make-up does too.  And rate of twist, projectile type and weight, etc...  The "best" load for your particular gun is something you need to experiment with to determine, and the manufacturer's guidelines are a good place to start.

If you experiment with the charge, patch material, patch thickness, patch lube, etc, you'll see some pretty serious differences and should be able to determine what works out best.  The most accurate load for your gun is seldom anywhere near the safe "maximum" load.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline uptown

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Re: Black Powder
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2013, 05:54:15 PM »
When I started getting into BP I bought a book that I've found extremely helpful in explaining the different types of powder/loads and so forth. IMO this book ought to be in every BP shooters library. I think it was less than 20 bucks.

http://www.adorama.com/LY9827100.html?gclid=CKqD9_6D1rkCFcbm7Aod63kArw


This book will explain all the variables MtMan is talking about in choosing what's best for you. I highly recommend it. It's actually made me a better shooter
« Last Edit: September 18, 2013, 05:58:08 PM by uptown »
Lighten up Francis