Author Topic: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit  (Read 799 times)

Offline Rino

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 05:49:54 PM »
At the moment there is no tech that can transfer imagery with the quality and definiton of a Mk1 Eyeball at high speed and low latency too a remote operator.
 

     I was talking to a drone operator a while back and he said the drones can give the manned aircraft
fits because they are able to pull many more Gs without a pilot onboard.  I guess you have pluses and
minuses for both types.
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PHAN
Proud veteran of the Cola Wars

Offline DurrD

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2013, 01:36:14 PM »
Just to clarify for those that are confused.  These F-16s are to be target and testing drones, not operationally used in a pilot-less fashion.  That said, we probably aren't too far from the day of a pilot-less fighter in combat.  There are many of us in the USAF that think the F-35 will be the last manned fighter.  The next one will be at least optionally manned.

One of the biggest obstacles we have right now is solving the problem of what we do if they are able to break the link between the aircraft and operator.  This is a problem as our current systems are not truly unmanned aircraft, its just that the man is on the ground somewhere.  Once we get AI to the point of being able to autonomously conduct a mission, then we will be able to cut the link, and not have to worry about it.  We are close to that point, but there are obvious ethical, moral, practical, and public opinion considerations involved in this.

Also, as an aside, it is a pet peeve of mine when people call Predators and other RPA's "drones".  The F-16 being talked about in this thread is a true drone.  Predators/Reapers/Gray Eagles/etc are considered remotely piloted aircraft or RPAs and are technically NOT drones.  The media irritates me intensely when they call those platforms drones.
FBDurr -- A Freebird since 2013, been playing Aces High since 2001.

Offline Arlo

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2013, 01:39:53 PM »
Once we get AI to the point of being able to autonomously conduct a mission, then we will be able to cut the link, and not have to worry about it.

However, your next sentence illustrates why we should never 'not have to worry about it.'

We are close to that point, but there are obvious ethical, moral, practical, and public opinion considerations involved in this.

Offline DurrD

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2013, 02:27:40 PM »
The problem with AI is that it is hard to make it as much of a devious bastard as humans can be.  If we have any serious chess enthusiasts in here they can probably tell this story better than I can, but early in the period when they were trying to make a computer that could beat the best human champions, they had a computer that looked like it was going to be able to do the trick.  The chess master that was playing recognized that the computer would probably outplay him if he employed a conventional strategy, so he ended up using tactics that were extremely unconventional, and which would have never worked against a human, since another chess master would have simply adapted quickly and continued on.  The computer was unable to react to this, and was summarily beaten as I recall.

We could have the same problem with a fully autonomous setup.  Here is a case in point.  We have long had the ability to detect incoming indirect fire, triangulate on the POO (point of origin), and return fire quickly.  In fact, a counter battery fire mission can theoretically be fired before the incoming shells/rockets even impact!  However, once when I was in Iraq, at a certain large FOB, we found that the insurgents were trying to exploit this capability against us by setting up mortar tubes and rocket rails in places like school yards and such, hoping to generate a swift counter battery mission directly onto the school or whatever.  Needless to say, this would have been a huge PR disaster, aside from the human tragedy of dead school kids.  It had to become standard policy to check out the POO site with some type of visual sensor prior to returning fire if it was located in certain urban areas.  There were still rural areas nearby where we would return fire instantly since we knew there was nothing in that area to worry about.

You could see a similar problem with AI controlled aircraft.  They could be sent to strike a certain target, but once they arrive there is a school bus of kids next to it.  A human pilot is going to be able to make the decision of whether or not that target is important enough to continue with the strike.  The AI may not be able to distinguish that there is even an issue.  Moral and ethical considerations are a huge challenge when it comes to computers.

You are right though, I overstated when I said "not have to worry about it".  We are always going to have to worry about it, and it will probably always be a challenge, in fact an ever-increasing one as we are just now starting to see a lot of AI applications reach fruition in many different fields, not just warfare. 
FBDurr -- A Freebird since 2013, been playing Aces High since 2001.

Offline Arlo

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2013, 04:10:23 PM »
Your posts are a delight to read. I think I may even look forward to disagreeing with you from time to time. If that happens.  :)

 :cheers:

Offline DurrD

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2013, 06:13:08 PM »
Thank you sir.  Someone just accused me of being a sock puppet in the post about WW2 facts due to my post count being low, but I just returned to this forum as a poster recently.  I used to post under a different name back in the day (was just plain old Durr). 

I had been getting most of my online posting kicks by posting in the Amazon history and politics forums, and will continue to do so some, but I am getting tired of the mentality of most of the people that post there, as compared to most of the people that post here.
FBDurr -- A Freebird since 2013, been playing Aces High since 2001.

Offline Arlo

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Re: F-16 jet takes off with empty cockpit
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2013, 07:20:09 PM »
I hope you fly with the rest of us online, should you choose.  :)