TBM or TBF?

[Rich46yo]

Maybe I missed something somewheres but where did anyone compare Avenger Kills to B24 kills? Or say Avengers killed more?

Theres little doubt B24s were extremely lethal to U-boats. They killed the 2nd "Happy Time" off the American coast and were the last thing a U-boat Capt. wanted to see. Even if the boat dived the bomber usually had some type of advanced radar the Germans couldnt beat or even MAD gear. Their loiter times were so long they could easily call in other B-24s/surface assets and a boat could only stay submerged for so long. They could be easily resupplied from supply boats and just hang out there like vultures. There were over 200 convoy routes in the war.

But the one thing they kept, even after the channel and coasts were taken away from them, was the mid-Atlantic where they could still ambush convoys and fight on the surface. The very long range air craft and the hunter/killer escort CVs took this last sanctuary away

IF you add up all the kills by the TBF, Wildcat & Swordfish they don't come near the total reached by just the PBY & the B24.

According to uboat.net (http://uboat.net/index.html)

Plane	u-boat loss
tbv avenger	35
f4f wildcat	21
fairy Swordfish	21
Short Sunderland	27
PBY Catalina	36
Handley Page Halifax	9
Boeing B-17	11
Convair  B-24	75

[earl1937]

Maybe I missed something somewheres but where did anyone compare Avenger Kills to B24 kills? Or say Avengers killed more?

Theres little doubt B24s were extremely lethal to U-boats. They killed the 2nd "Happy Time" off the American coast and were the last thing a U-boat Capt. wanted to see. Even if the boat dived the bomber usually had some type of advanced radar the Germans couldnt beat or even MAD gear. Their loiter times were so long they could easily call in other B-24s/surface assets and a boat could only stay submerged for so long. They could be easily resupplied from supply boats and just hang out there like vultures. There were over 200 convoy routes in the war.

But the one thing they kept, even after the channel and coasts were taken away from them, was the mid-Atlantic where they could still ambush convoys and fight on the surface. The very long range air craft and the hunter/killer escort CVs took this last sanctuary away

Check reply #13

[Ardy123]

Maybe I missed something somewheres but where did anyone compare Avenger Kills to B24 kills? Or say Avengers killed more?

Theres little doubt B24s were extremely lethal to U-boats. They killed the 2nd "Happy Time" off the American coast and were the last thing a U-boat Capt. wanted to see. Even if the boat dived the bomber usually had some type of advanced radar the Germans couldnt beat or even MAD gear. Their loiter times were so long they could easily call in other B-24s/surface assets and a boat could only stay submerged for so long. They could be easily resupplied from supply boats and just hang out there like vultures. There were over 200 convoy routes in the war.

But the one thing they kept, even after the channel and coasts were taken away from them, was the mid-Atlantic where they could still ambush convoys and fight on the surface. The very long range air craft and the hunter/killer escort CVs took this last sanctuary away

sorry wasn't trying to call you out like that, was just trying to show that b-24s were "the" killers... in reference to my earlier post except with 'facts' (not sure how accurate uboat.net is).

[earl1937]

sorry wasn't trying to call you out like that, was just trying to show that b-24s were "the" killers... in reference to my earlier post except with 'facts' (not sure how accurate uboat.net is).

The B-24 had the ability to carry "depth" charges and or 1,000 lb bombs, both of whom would kill a U-boat if it wasn't over about 20 feet deep, which I think coincides with the depth which was used by the U-boats for periscope viewing. I would think a 1,000 lb bomb or a 500 lb depth charge would collapse the pressure hull of a WW2 sub! I know I have seen several subs just off the Florida coast, just below the surface and they look like a whale, but much larger and longer.

[Rino]

The former site of the Eastern Aircraft Division of General Motors, where the TBM was built, is on the banks of the Hudson River just north of the Tappan Zee Bridge

41.08450 N , 73.870919 W

     I remember reading about Linden airport in NJ.  A GM plant across the street was converted to
manufacture FM-1s and 2s.  They then built a small field directly across the street to fly off their
products.  Did GM have another plant that close?

     Well at least Wiki agrees with me..for all the good that does 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linden_Airport

[Bino]

    I remember reading about Linden airport in NJ.  A GM plant across the street was converted to
manufacture FM-1s and 2s.  They then built a small field directly across the street to fly off their
products.  Did GM have another plant that close?

     Well at least Wiki agrees with me..for all the good that does  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linden_Airport

According to an article originally published in the July-August 1995 issue of Naval Aviation News, during the war Eastern Aircraft Division had factories in Bloomfield NJ, Linden NJ, Trenton NJ, Baltimore MD, and Tarrytown NY.  This article says the Avenger was manufactured as sub-assemblies, with final assembly in Trenton, which info I had not seen before.  As far as I can tell from a quick look around the i-net, the original Mercer Airport site (now the Mountain View Golf Club, just north-west of the current KTTN) was expanded specifically to accommodate EAD's Avenger production.

And of course, EAD also made Wildcats.

(2.5 MB PDF file from history.navy.mil)

www.history.navy.mil/download/ww2-37.pdf‎

[GScholz]

The Germans lost a total of 720 U-boats during the war, so the surface escorts were still their primary enemy. The aircraft were a constant hazard however, and forced the U-boats to dive often, thus reducing their range and effectiveness.

[GScholz]

Also more than 700 aircraft were lost in action against U-boats.

This list compiled by the folks at uboat.net shows 119 aircraft shot down by 97 individual U-boats for the loss of 31 U-boats either sunk during the attack or due to being located by other forces shortly afterwards and sunk.

http://www.uboat.net/history/aircraft_losses.htm

[Brooke]

Six TBF-1s were present on Midway Island—as part of VT-8 (Torpedo Squadron 8)—while the rest of the squadron flew Devastators from the Hornet. Unfortunately, both types of torpedo bombers suffered heavy casualties. Out of the six Avengers, five were shot down and the other returning heavily damaged with one of its gunners killed, and the other gunner and the pilot injured.

I got to meet Harry Ferrier once, who was the radioman/gunner on the TBM that made it back to Midway.

His plane back at Midway:


An excellent book on TBM's, torpedo bombing, and VT-8 (covering Midway and the Cactus Airforce days) is "A Dawn Like Thunder", by Mrazek.