.303 damage

[bustr]

Some of our 12.7mm and all of our 13mm, 20mm, 30mm, 37mm and 50mm in our single and twins not tank busters, do not loose their destructive capacity over the full distance of their in game effective distance. Because they use a chemical explosive payload to effect damage. TNT, PTEN, HA41, or Penthrite for some. This is the single reason for Germany going with cannons. You don't need as many contacts to the enemy to perform similar damage as from kinetic rounds. Thus the 50cal(12.7mm) rate of fire and numbers in the wings. We almost got a 60cal(15.2mm) cannon in WW2.

30cal and 50cal are kinetic damage projectiles. I'm assuming they are some modeling of API since we set all planes on fire with them. I've never seen an HTC table showing effective range to VLoss relative to loss of kinetic potential. If the Browning AN/M2 is modeled after AAF 1945 specs. At 2000ft(666yds) we should be sawing everything apart inside of 3sec in the air if enough rounds make contact except for maybe the IL2 at some angles.

Does anyone have a chart of max effective range in AH for 30 and 50cal along with the kinetic potential at every 100yds? Having something like that posted up as a pull up chart would go a long way towards player self help. Added to that the max range in game for every round type. You can watch the matrix absorbing wirbel rounds if you setup a few yards past about 1700yds. They just disappear short of hitting you. You can see the same phenomenon against the offline target. There will be a range at which rounds stop making a mark on the target.

[Brooke]

In the Battle of Britain Scenario (underway, with last frame tomorrow, Saturday at 3 pm Eastern in Special Events II for any interested), Thrila flying Hurri I's got 10 kills in frame 2 and 8 kills in frame 3, usually on a couple of sorties, and many of those kills are He 111's and Ju 88's (which are fairly tough).

I'd say .303's are not impossible to kill with. 

[SmokinLoon]

Some of our 12.7mm and all of our 13mm, 20mm, 30mm, 37mm and 50mm in our single and twins not tank busters, do not loose their destructive capacity over the full distance of their in game effective distance. Because they use a chemical explosive payload to effect damage. TNT, PTEN, HA41, or Penthrite for some. This is the single reason for Germany going with cannons. You don't need as many contacts to the enemy to perform similar damage as from kinetic rounds. Thus the 50cal(12.7mm) rate of fire and numbers in the wings. We almost got a 60cal(15.2mm) cannon in WW2.

30cal and 50cal are kinetic damage projectiles. I'm assuming they are some modeling of API since we set all planes on fire with them. I've never seen an HTC table showing effective range to VLoss relative to loss of kinetic potential. If the Browning AN/M2 is modeled after AAF 1945 specs. At 2000ft(666yds) we should be sawing everything apart inside of 3sec in the air if enough rounds make contact except for maybe the IL2 at some angles.

Does anyone have a chart of max effective range in AH for 30 and 50cal along with the kinetic potential at every 100yds? Having something like that posted up as a pull up chart would go a long way towards player self help. Added to that the max range in game for every round type. You can watch the matrix absorbing wirbel rounds if you setup a few yards past about 1700yds. They just disappear short of hitting you. You can see the same phenomenon against the offline target. There will be a range at which rounds stop making a mark on the target.

Thanks for jumping on that.  I always cringe when I see/hear people equating the size of the projectile to the amount of damage attributed to the cartridge in question.  Aside from the 37mm from the IL-2, 40mm from the Hurricane IID, and the 37mm from the Stuka G-2, the rest of the aircraft cannons in AH are firing HE or "performance" warheads, meaning that the projectiles were meant to break apart or explode upon impact.  Vs thin skinned aircraft, it is this effect that is desired and it is also one of the major reasons the US went with 4 or 6 .50 cal MG's in their fighters in hopes to mimic the large enough damage area similar to 20mm cannons.

The best way to determine IF range effects damage is to take an M3 armed with the single .50 cal, plus gv supplies, and start pounding a hanger offline (set the hardness to 10 lbs, or 100 lbs, etc).  Start at roughly 400 yards, then back of to 600, then 800, then 1000, etc.  Record the number of hits it takes to bring down that hanger.  Technically, the further back the M3 is the more hits it should take to bring down the hanger because of the lower kinetic energy of the FMJ's.  Now, we all know that the damage dealt from a player to OBJ's and player controlled vehicles are not the same, but there is some correlation (4 lbs dmg from a Hispano 20mm to an OBJ does not mean a Hispano 20mm will do 4 lbs damage against a plane).  Keep that in mind.

My hunch is that is HTC has modeled in a deduction of damage for FMJ projectiles based on range that the difference between 400 yards and 1200 yards is almost negligible to players, at least to OBJ's.  Against player controlled vehicles (planes and gv's), it is any person's guess. 

[Karnak]

The best way to determine IF range effects damage is to take an M3 armed with the single .50 cal, plus gv supplies, and start pounding a hanger offline (set the hardness to 10 lbs, or 100 lbs, etc).  Start at roughly 400 yards, then back of to 600, then 800, then 1000, etc.  Record the number of hits it takes to bring down that hanger.  Technically, the further back the M3 is the more hits it should take to bring down the hanger because of the lower kinetic energy of the FMJ's.  Now, we all know that the damage dealt from a player to OBJ's and player controlled vehicles are not the same, but there is some correlation (4 lbs dmg from a Hispano 20mm to an OBJ does not mean a Hispano 20mm will do 4 lbs damage against a plane).  Keep that in mind.

This doesn't reveal anything actually.  Damage values are fixed against objects like hangars and ammo bunkers.  Range most certainly affects the damage of rounds when hitting planes, GVs or the PT Boat though.

My hunch is that is HTC has modeled in a deduction of damage for FMJ projectiles based on range that the difference between 400 yards and 1200 yards is almost negligible to players, at least to OBJ's.  Against player controlled vehicles (planes and gv's), it is any person's guess. 

It is a physics calculation.  HiTech has said that even altitude air density affects it in the game.  It is likely quite significant.

[SmokinLoon]

This doesn't reveal anything actually.  Damage values are fixed against objects like hangars and ammo bunkers.  Range most certainly affects the damage of rounds when hitting planes, GVs or the PT Boat though.
It is a physics calculation.  HiTech has said that even altitude air density affects it in the game.  It is likely quite significant.

Me thinks not as much as people tend to think.  The bigger culprit of longer FMJ shots not doing damage are going to be the obvious: not enough shots on target and more so not enough shots on a small enough area on target.  Just how often are we going to get 12, 18, 24, or 30+ .50 cal hits on a X square area on a specific part of the plane at 800 yards like we do at the closer convergence points?  When a US fighter with 6/.50 cals has convergence set to 300 yards and the target just hangs their as a nice red bulls-eye, that is a bit different if that same plane pot shots a burst at an enemy target 800 yards away and in a high speed turn.  About the only plane we could measure any of that with is the P38, and again that can really only be measured against a static OBJ like a hanger.  Again, there is a difference between aircraft and gv's vs OBJ's, they way they receive damage is like comparing an apple and orange.  We can only really measure damage to OBJ's.

I understand that HTC had modeled air density, I've read the same threads you have.  However, I've not seen any data supporting the loss of damage for .50 cal FMJ's at longer ranges.  Again, the only way we can document is to measure it off line vs an OBJ and go from there.  IF in fact it takes a few more rounds to bust an OBJ at longer ranges then it is likely that the longer range damage ability vs an aircraft or gv via FMJ is modeled as well.

FWIW, I've not noticed at difference when in an enemy town in an M3 and I hammer a building up close or I let loose on a building a couple of hundred yards out.  Mind you, I believe the .US 50 cal FMJ does its best work (AP penetration) at 600 yards, iirc.  Likewise, the 5.56 NATO is best at 200 yards, and the 7.62 NATO is 500 yards, iirc (I'll have to look up exact data source).

Test it out and let us know.   

[Lusche]

Again, the only way we can document is to measure it off line vs an OBJ and go from there.  IF in fact it takes a few more rounds to bust an OBJ at longer ranges then it is likely that the longer range damage ability vs an aircraft or gv via FMJ is modeled as well.

No need for all that. It's quite simple:

vs Objects range is no factor, damage value is fixed for all weapons
vs players (planes, gv and such) it is.

This is how it has been officially stated before.

[SmokinLoon]

No need for all that. It's quite simple:

vs Objects range is no factor, damage value is fixed for all weapons
vs players (planes, gv and such) it is.

This is how it has been officially stated before.

Ah.  Didn't know the Big Cheese had official stated that range means nada vs OBJ but does mean something for player controlled vehicles.

[bustr]

I have a 1942 document that shows penetration testing with API 0.5 in Browning.

Zero degree impact to steel plate.

200yds - 20mm
400yds - 18mm
600yds - 16mm

The values for 20 and 40 degree reduce these almost by thirds.

.303 and .30cal are just doing 1\4in of steel at 200. By 400-600 the German layered aluminum plate armor will stop them. So as our recent BoB event showed, get real close and you can kill bombers. Or kill late war better armored fighters with 8-.303.

Seems all testing documents or armorers manuals for the allies, 50 cal are not thought of as effective past about 600yds. Whether this is real world human ability based or physics I don't know. But, we know in our game we tend to be supermen when it comes to long range shooting.

Note:

The British only penetration tested 20mm Ball\AP\API to 400yds. Penetration was only just a bit better than .50 API at all ranges. And HE to 200yds, to which it looks like they only wanted to know aluminum skin would be breeched before detonation. 

[SmokinLoon]

I have a 1942 document that shows penetration testing with API 0.5 in Browning.

Zero degree impact to steel plate.

200yds - 20mm
400yds - 18mm
600yds - 16mm

The values for 20 and 40 degree reduce these almost by thirds.

.303 and .30cal are just doing 1\4in of steel at 200. By 400-600 the German layered aluminum plate armor will stop them. So as our recent BoB event showed, get real close and you can kill bombers. Or kill late war better armored fighters with 8-.303.

Seems all testing documents or armorers manuals for the allies, 50 cal are not thought of as effective past about 600yds. Whether this is real world human ability based or physics I don't know. But, we know in our game we tend to be supermen when it comes to long range shooting.

Note:

The British only penetration tested 20mm Ball\AP\API to 400yds. Penetration was only just a bit better than .50 API at all ranges. And HE to 200yds, to which it looks like they only wanted to know aluminum skin would be breeched before detonation. 

AP data vs steel is very different than vs non-armored mediums (for lack of better terms).  The details are in what happens once the process of the initial impact is completed, meaning once the projectile busts through the first medium.  Vs a steel plate at X yards is one thing, vs a cinder block, aluminum plane skin and internal struts, or other such mediums that wont completely strip the kinetic energy and physical integrity of the FMJ away once the initial impact occurs is another.  As we all know the HE or performance warheads were meant to dissipate immediately, while the FMJ's by default were meant to keep on going.  Case in point: AP damage does not equate parallel damage to an aircraft in AH.  Enough damage must be dealt to a specific part of the targeted plane in order for "damage" to occur.  Otherwise, we're just punching holes in the plane.

Also, regarding the "not as effective past 600 yards" bit, that may be true in actual performance of the .50 cal FMJ, but ultimately I think it had to do with the thought of "what for?"  600 yards is a long ways for the human eye to gauge, and without the use of optics it is almost pointless unless the desired effect is area saturation.

[bustr]

German armorers manuals for 109 and FW indicate Germany felt the chemical and kinetic potential of their 20mm rounds was satisfactory 550-700 meters air to air. But, then they were shooting at bombers while their harmonization attempted to create a dual sweet spot about 250-275 meters for fighter combat and 550-700 max for bombers.

In 1943 the NAVY "Bureau of Aeronautics" created specific arcane area saturation harmonization patterns for all of their fighters to shoot down Japanese bombers. Their assertion was 666yards maximum range for the .50cal to still achieve any effective damage. NAVY pilots quickly changed their harmonization patterns from personal combat experience. The Bureau assessed that the relative speeds and forces effecting the line of a muzzle of aircraft in combat created effects that simply scattered rounds to much to be effective past the 666 range. They projected a 1 degree dispersion cone at any range or 17.4Mils for their arcane harmonization pattern that the pilots quickly changed. The AAF projected an average 4Mil dispersion cone at any given range as the most effective.

The US tests the 20mm to 4200ft(1400yd) for the P38 while the .50cal to 3000ft(1000yds). Yet the harmonization charts specify 2000ft for both as max effective range.