Author Topic: Russian A-Team train...  (Read 419 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 06:05:26 AM »
Exactly  :huh
I'd like to be critical but it seems like it worked the way it was intended.

The russians have a history of doing rescues with no concern for some collateral damages, including fatalities.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Gman

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 06:39:01 PM »
My company was the North American distributor for a European company that made less lethal products back in the early to mid 2000's, and they had a flashbang/distraction device that was reusable, you just screwed new fuzes into the top of a reusable metal hull.  It had 3 sizes, training, which was loud and hurt, law enforcement, which was really loud and really hurt, and a military one, which was about 1/10 of that charge I think.  I still can't believe they used one that large, sort of removes the point of assaulting it with small arms when you blow it apart.

Historically, I agree with MrRipley, Russia/USSR has never been to sentimental when it comes to a 1 to 33% blue on blue rate (or red on red in their case, haha).  The last big anti terrorist ops they've run included some pretty crazy stuff, even using nerve agents on EVERYONE, including the hostages.  I know if I was a hostage in Russia, I'd be just as worried as the hostage takers, for whom there is NO hope, as their theory is to use tactics as in the video, very "gross motor skill" writ large types of ideas, and a lot less "finesse". 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 06:46:27 PM by Gman »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 07:04:11 PM »
I'm guessing you're referring to the Moscow theater hostage crisis in 2002. The Russians made several blunders during that operation. Biggest of which was not informing the medical services what gas they had used. All but two of the hostages who died during the siege were killed by the gas.

However... The situation was this: 850 people in a theater held hostage by 40-50 heavily armed terrorists and suicide bombers intermingled with the hostages, all willing to sacrifice their lives for their cause. I don't see how a western anti-terror unit could have done better given the situation. More likely a western government would have had to compromise with the terrorists. The Russian assault, botched as it was, still saved 717 out of 850 hostages while killing all the terrorists.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 07:05:54 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Gman

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2013, 08:58:31 PM »
Which, proves my statement exactly - The Russians are never scared of a little fratricide or friendlies killed if it helps accomplish their mission.  I didn't say it was "bad" or "wrong", it's just a statement of fact.  They killed about 15% of the hostages to save the rest, by their standards a more than acceptable outcome it that situation, which is pretty much the nightmare of all hostage rescue operations.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2013, 09:06:36 PM »
Indeed.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Plawranc

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Re: Russian A-Team train...
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2013, 10:04:54 PM »
From what I gathered in my studies into history.

Never underestimate a bunch of heavily armed and determined Russians. No matter how many tanks, boats and planes you have.
DaPacman - 71 Squadron RAF

"There are only two things that make life worth living. Fornication and Aviation"