Best Heavy Fighter

[Widewing]

The Germans had a war on two front's, I don't think any country during WW2 could of handled this scenario - even the mighty US.

But, we did.....

[J.A.W.]

Yeah right, massive Nippon bomber fleets were roaming at will over the 48 states.. L.O.L...

[Widewing]

Yeah right, massive Nippon bomber fleets were roaming at will over the 48 states.. L.O.L...

I see you've reached a new low in being a chitforbrains.....

[Hajo]

   <sigh>

[J.A.W.]

But.. hey Ww,- what happened to the 'love-muffin' you were offering.. ..L.O.L.

Clearly Ww, if the USA had been subject to an equivalent level of e/a activity in its continental airspace - as Germany had to cope with, it would've found this a tad more stressful than what did
occur, right?

[Brooke]

Japan was a formidable opponent.

For anyone who doesn't think so, there are some excellent books on the topic (such as "With the Old Breed", by Sledge and "Neptune's Inferno," by Hornfischer).

[J.A.W.]

It is not a propaganda myth, just the typical modification that happens. Ever play the game where a person whispers something in someones ear and it is passed down the line? The final is nothing like the original.

It has been discussed on many boards over the years. What emerged was that some commander sent a notification to some other commanders that the Soviets had a new fighter that was very similar to one already in service. This new a/c was much more dangerous than the other a/c.

Could be something like what you suggest M.M.,
but 'Chinese Whispers' def' aint in the same category as an officially promulgated 'order'..
..by any means..

[Butcher]

Check the memoir of top ETO Allied ace Johnny Johnson, "Wing Leader"..

He used the term 'rabble'..to describe the VVS units he encountered..

Yes, I read the book, a number of times, however the comment that the VVS were not disciplined is completely false, early in the war I can agree with this assessment, however by late 1942 the luftwaffe and Wehrmacht were stopped not by the West bombing - while they still took losses,
they still were refining the tactics (given they have only been at war for one year now). To the credit, they VVS did a remarkable turn around considering what they lost in Barbarossa.

Still the LW were flying ( largely) technically competent & organised ops, albeit affected by the realities of war situation - which obviously caused logistic difficulties  plus the severe pressure from
attacks on their airfields , infrastructure, &  sheer numbers of allied planes in the air..

But they were flying, fighting & claiming victories against the Allies - right to the final days of the war, with remarkably creditable effort, considering..

Wouldn't you if you knew the Russians were outside of Berlin already and the West was no where near? The last major offensive the Luftwaffe put up was 1/1/45 and it turned out pretty bad, read up on Operation Bondenplatte, do you really think they were "remarkably coordinated still?" No, the Navy didn't know, let alone the Wehrmacht, quite a few Luftwaffe planes were shot down by their own anti aircraft artillery. 7 Airfields took heavy damage and 6 took almost no damage, let alone the few that took slight damage. The operation met tactical surprise, but considering the Luftwaffe lost over 150 pilots, they never recovered from this. Period. It was not even an Operation, it was a last ditch gamble to win air supremacy from the allies for Battle of the Bulge and it was a remarkable failure, the damage inflicted the allies could replace in 1 week, the lost of that many german pilots? forget it. Sure the luftwaffe had some victories up until the last day of the war, hell france fought too until the last day, doesn't mean they did very well.

& AFAIK, that 'do not engage' order to the Jagdwaffe - is  just another propaganda myth..

Its an internet myth, actually the myth is not to engage "certain" soviet fighters, the real story is Gruppenkommandeur's warned pilots not to fly against certain soviet aircrafts, i.e the Yak and La7 at certain altitudes, because these fighters outclassed the luftwaffe planes. However the story being told so many times by people who read wikipedia, it ends up as "luftwaffe orders were not to engage certain targets". Not true, the allies didn't run because an Me-262 showed up, they were warned of its speed and firepower. Milomorai is correct in how it gets passed down the "line".

[J.A.W.]

In fact, while Bodenplatte was fairly ill-considered.. & poorly executed in parts..

It is the Allied AFs - who should be ashamed of their performance on 1-1-45..

They let the opportunity to have the mother-of-all A2A battles & 'Turkey Shoot' the Jagdwaffe,
go begging & got caught with their pants down pissing instead..

The stats of LW A2A combat vs RAF/USAAF compared with LW vs VVS don't bear out your
fairly high opinion of the Ruskies either..

The Jadgwaffe thought of the Eastern front as a bit of a 'rest-cure' in A2A terms really..

How many LW aces got victory scores - in the hundreds - in the West?

[J.A.W.]

& AFAIR, the LW operated 'Zircus Rosarius' a unit flying captured e/a,
who would demonstrate their attributes to LW units - with a view to learning best combat tactics..

Have you read H-W Lerche's memoir about LW test-flying e/a at Rechlin,
& finding out their performance attributes, like-wise?

Perhaps you are a bit to quick to dismiss J.J.'s description of VVS 'rabble' flying..

I have no doubt he accurately recorded his observations, & don't mistake poor flying discipline
for poor military discipline either, didn't the VVS have political commissars flying too?

Those basterds could have you off to Siberia, or shot summarily  - if they saw fit...

& B, you cannot be serious trying to compare the Allied debacle in 1940 (or in the far east `41-42),
with what the Germans managed post D-day..

Even with massive over-kill, it took 11 months for them to do what took less than 11 weeks in `40..

[MiloMorai]

In fact, while Bodenplatte was fairly ill-considered.. & poorly executed in parts..

It is the Allied AFs - who should be ashamed of their performance on 1-1-45..

They let the opportunity to have the mother-of-all A2A battles & 'Turkey Shoot' the Jagdwaffe,
go begging & got caught with their pants down pissing instead..

Yes the Allied AFs (2TAF, 9th AF) did really bad with 40% of the attacking force of fighters and fighter-bombers destroyed or damaged. (32% destroyed)

Of the 213 Luftwaffe pilots lost, 45 were experienced pilots of which 22 were unit commanders.

[J.A.W.]

There were nearly a thousand bloody LW fighters milling about, they should've been toast..

Here's what an RAF S/Ldr who was there... reckoned..

Form Bob Spurdle's memoir, 'The Blue Arena' P. 205.

"The Jerries had taken advantage of our known weakness for whooping it up at New Year.
They'd mounted a massive fighter strike against the 20 odd airfields in the British sector
in Holland & Belgium."

"A blanket of secrecy hid the true facts, but one thing was sure- we'd suffered a mighty blow...
...it was a major defeat brought on us by complacency & lack of foresight.
 We were just too confident..."


& P. Clostermann wrote, in 'The Big Show' P.170,

"The American censorship & the Press services, in a flat spin, tried to present this attack as a great Allied victory, by publishing peculiar figures. We pilots were still laughing about them 3 months later. The LW...succeeded in nearly paralysing the tactical airforces for more than a week."   

[MiloMorai]

Maybe you should read some modern publications on Bodenplatte.

Bodenplatte was to have happened 2 weeks before the date it did happen. So much for the New Years day nonsense.

There was ~850 Luftwaffe fighters and fighter-bombers participating. What is 40% of 850?

485 Sqd sure took a whooping with 13 Cat E a/c and 2 Cat B a/c.

Allied a/c losses had been replaced within a week.

Yah right, the press is going to going to put out the truth. Never have and never will.

[J.A.W.]

They ought to have been up in force & bagged the bloody lot!

What happened to 'Ultra' then, & why no warning?

& I'd reckon the guys who were there might know some things about it..

Bob Spurdle commanded 80 Squadron, a Tempest unit within 122 TAF Tempest Wing..

He wrote..re Bodenplatte..

"We never discovered  the fool at Eindhoven who could have called on 5 squadrons of the
world's most  formidable fighters. He should have been shot."

"Scuttle-butt garnered over the next few months put our losses at over 300 machines destroyed on the ground in just a few minutes."

RAF Wing Leader Johnny Johnson was appalled too, both by the lack of Allied preparedness & by the poor  shooting by the LW, he reckoned if they'd been his boys doing it - he'd have kicked their arses - for their slack work ethic..

[MiloMorai]

Which 5 squadrons of Typhoons/Spitfires?

Scuttlebutt, is that like the press?

I guess Spurdel and Johnson, as well as other commanders, should have been brought up on incompetence charges for not have a/c in the air at first light.