Author Topic: I will survive!  (Read 4153 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2013, 08:13:10 PM »
If you look at what portion of the prop is supersonic, you find that there isn't that much extra prop length subjected to sonic or transonic drag between max level speed at 30k and some portion of a terminal-velocity vertical dive.

At 30k and 430 mph for a P-47D-40 on WEP, at a point 0.84 along the prop blade, it is travelling at Mach 1.  (At 30k, speed of sound is 678 mph.  So, (f * 626)^2 + (430)^2 = 678^2 happens at f = 0.84.)  The prop at 30k max-speed flight is certainly not an air brake, and 1 foot of the prop being supersonic isn't enough to absorb all engine power reducing thrust to zero.

At 15k and 0.85 M, at a point 0.61 along the prop blade, it is travelling at Mach 1.  (At 15k, speed of sound is 721 mph.  So, (f * 626)^2 + (0.85 * 721)^2 = 721^2 happens at f = 0.61.)  The point where the prop is supersonic is 0.23 * 6.5 feet more, or 1.5 feet more than the 30k case.

1.5 more feet of prop blade being subjected to transonic drag isn't likely, I don't think, to turn the prop from generating still substantial thrust into an air brake.

Offline bozon

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #46 on: December 03, 2013, 03:59:23 AM »
I could go through calculations on that (working to figure out the drag on the blades at, say, 0.85 M, and seeing if 1500 HP can't still spin it).  That seems like a lot of work, so I'll ponder if there is a simpler way to show it.
Put your pen down for a minute Brooke. I think you are confusing drag on the plane (=force pushing the plane backwards) and drag on the blade. I am not an aero-engineer, but lets try to think this over together. Lets assume that your engine has enough HP to keep the constant RPM regardless.

The usual description of lift and drag is with respect to the bulk airflow, so forces directed along the flow are drag and those perpendicular to it are lift. Now look at the flow from the point of view of the blade. It has airflow coming at it due to rotation at speed w*r (w=rotation frequency, r=radius of prop element) and another component of speed due to the travel of the plane through the air: v.
This gives an angle "b" to the total flow:
tan(b)=v/(w*r)

In order to have a positive angle of attack, the blade has to be pitched at an angle greater than "b" (pitch=0 is idle, pitch=90 is feathered). As you can see, the angle depends on "r" and this is why props have a twist to them, to keep the angle of attack constant at a certain optimized speed v! (w is constant).

Now lets look at the blade as a wing. It has lift Lb and drag Db. I use the "b" in Lb and Db to emphasize that we are looking through the point of view of the blade. Lb and Db are relative to the airflow on the blade. I'm sure you can convince yourself that this flow is tilted at an angle 90-b from the direction of travel of the plane. Therefore, only part of Lb contributes to pulling the plane forward and part makes it harder to rotate the blade. Same for Db, some of it slows the plane down and some resists the rotation of the blade.

The thrust for the planeis:
T=Lb * cos(b)
and the "anti-thrust" or "prop drag" that tries to slow down the plane is:
D = Db * sin(b)

You can already see that when the plane's speed "v" increase, "b" increase and therefore T goes down, while D goes up! The lift and drag on a wing have very similar expressions except for a different coefficient for lift and drag, which are a function of the angle of attack. If the lift coefficient is CL, the drag coefficient CD scales like CL^2. Therefore we get approximately:

D/T = CD/CL * v/(w*r) ~ CL * v/(w*r)

You can see that if "v" is getting larger than the blade rotation velocity w*r, you tend to produce more prop drag than thrust. At some point the net prop drag will be larger than the thrust. From here you can also see that increasing the the RPM (w) is generally more efficient than increasing the angle of attack (increasing CL), as long as you do not go sonic with the blade.

The complete picture is worse. We did not include form drag on the blade which will increase hugely when it goes supersonic. Since this operates in the same direction as Db (which we used as induced drag only) it will also have a component in the direction opposite of the plane travel. Also, the blade has a twist, i.e. a variable pitch angle as a function of length, which as we mention is optimized for a given RPM ("w") and plane velocity ("v"). If you increase "v" much beyond the optimized conditions, parts of the blade can get into a negative angle of attack and produce even more effective prop drag. Think of an infinite "v" (effectively v>>w*r) - the blade does not rotate and is pitched entirely into the airflow as if it was feathered. Part of the blade produce lift that tries to rotate it one way and the other part produce opposite lift, and both parts produce induced drag that slows the plane down.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2013, 11:58:27 AM »
When Curtiss Wright was testing transonic propeller designs, they used a P-47D-40-RE to do the high Mach dive tests. To establish a baseline for the airframe alone, they removed the blades from the propeller on the Jug. They installed lead ballast to provide for the correct CG. The engine was functional, solely for the purpose of generating hydraulic and electrical power. The prop-less P-47 was towed to 32,000 feet by a specially rigged B-29. After getting airborne, test pilot Herb Fisher started the engine and folded the landing gear.

At altitude, at 330 mph TAS, Fisher pulled the release handle and rolled into a near vertical dive. The P-47 attained a maximum speed of Mach 0.88, before Fisher initiated the pull-out (using the dive recovery flaps). Fisher started the engine to get hydraulic power. He flew the Jug down to a picture-perfect landing, despite suffering some damage to the control surfaces.

Repaired, the same P-47 was used for more than 100 dive tests. The maximum dive speed ever attained with a propeller installed was Mach 0.83 (on three occasions). The typical dive was in the Mach 0.79 to 0.80 range.

The difference was the drag of the propeller. Being an airfoil, prop blades are subject to the same physics as any airfoil. The drag rise as the blades approach Mach 0.8 is rapid and charts almost vertically. The dynamic loading on blades can be extreme. Fisher suffered two instances where blades were distorted from the loads. It was not unusual for prop shafts to shear under the stress. Indeed, a Spitfire PR managed to just exceed Mach 0.9 AFTER the prop shaft had sheared during a dive (there was other airframe damage as well).

Fisher's P-47. This is one of the propellers that was later distorted during a dive. The blades were bend back 9" measured at the tips.



One of Herb's dive tests, plotted....



Here's useful link to a document that may help readers understand drag issues at transonic airfoil speeds...
http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/TransonicAeroPres.pdf
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 12:06:09 PM by Widewing »
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Offline bozon

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2013, 02:26:57 PM »
Here's useful link to a document that may help readers understand drag issues at transonic airfoil speeds...
http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/TransonicAeroPres.pdf
Interesting read. Thanks.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #49 on: December 03, 2013, 04:53:33 PM »
When Curtiss Wright was testing transonic propeller designs. . . .

Thanks, Widewing.  That is a great post.

I'd say I was quite definitively wrong in my thoughts about prop effects in compressibility and stand corrected.  :aok

Offline LCADolby

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #50 on: December 03, 2013, 05:07:54 PM »
In aceshigh the most survivable aircraft is the P51.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2013, 05:13:19 PM »
Put your pen down for a minute Brooke. I think you are confusing drag on the plane (=force pushing the plane backwards) and drag on the blade.

Good to point out, but I'm not misunderstanding that and know the directions of the various vectors in play.

I'm also aware of how drag varies with speed, including the increase in the transonic region (i.e., this sort of thing:


My feeling was based on propeller theory (which isn't wrong) with the added estimation of how big is the effect on the prop of compressibility/wave drag in the terminal-velocity dive (where I was wrong).  I have a reference with experimental data that are good up to a prop-tip speed of about Mach 1.05.  But 0.85 M at 15k gives a tip speed of Mach 1.2.

From Widewing's post, extrapolation from tip speed of 1.05 M to 1.2 M isn't good enough.  There are other factors that come into play beyond what the extrapolation accounts for.

Thanks, guys -- I do stand corrected. <S>

Offline Brooke

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #52 on: December 03, 2013, 06:31:48 PM »
This is not on topic exactly, but one of the things from Widewing's post that strikes me is how amazingly courageous those test pilots were in doing those dive tests.

Test pilots were brave overall, but taking planes that sometimes came apart in terminal-velocity dives and doing repeatedly as a test seems especially brave.

Offline Brooke

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2013, 02:38:59 PM »
In case anyone is interested in props outside of compressibility speeds.

T = eta * 375 * gamma * BHP / v,

where T is thrust in pounds, eta is propeller efficiency, gamma is a factor for how much of full power is being applied (1.0 for full power, 0.5 for half power, 0 for no power, etc.), BHP is the brake horsepower of the engine, and v is the aircraft velocity in miles/hour. eta depends on aircraft speed and properties of the particular propeller. It can be looked up for particular aircraft, or it can be estimated in a variety of ways (some better than others, of course).

For props with good ability to absorb the power of the engine, it can be approximated reasonably well by knowing the advance ratio (J) and the power coefficient (C_P):

J = 88.0 * v / (N * D),

where v is aircraft speed in mph, N is prop rotation in RPM, and D is prop diameter in feet; and

C_P = 52.5 * gamma* BHP / [(N / 1000)^3 * D^5 * rho / rho_0],

where gamma is fraction of full power being applied, BHP is engine brake horsepower, N is prop RPM, D is prop diameter in ft, rho is the air density, and rho_0 is the air density at standard sea level.

With these, you can get eta from charts like this one:



This is all without corrections for compressibility.  Here is a chart of effect on prop efficiency from compressibility based on numerous experimental tests:

« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:44:26 PM by Brooke »

Offline wpeters

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2013, 04:31:51 PM »
I don't think so.  I think its thrust goes to zero (or near zero), not that the prop acts like an air brake at high speeds.

A windmilling prop acts like a brake (unlike a stationary, feathered prop) because energy from the air flow is being used to rotate the engine faster than it would otherwise rotate (i.e., faster than if there were no wind).  For example, with a plane parked on the runway, chop throttle to zero and set prop RPM to RPM_max, and the prop for a lot of planes won't be spinning at RPM_max.  It will only get to RMP_max under that throttle setting if something else ads power to the rotation.

In a full-power dive to high speeds and prop RPM set to RPMx, your engine is already spinning it at RPMx, and it will maintain RPMx in the dive.  It would only act as a brake under a particular condition that I don't believe to be the case in high-speed dives, namely drag on the prop so great that the full HP of the engine can't spin the prop at that speed by itself.  I doubt that's the case for 1500 to 2000 HP engines even if much of the blade length is supersonic.

I could go through calculations on that (working to figure out the drag on the blades at, say, 0.85 M, and seeing if 1500 HP can't still spin it).  That seems like a lot of work, so I'll ponder if there is a simpler way to show it.

I have to agree with Brooke on this.  A prop axt as a giant airbrake but the is pulling which goes to figure that it would equal zero thrust. It is pulling enough to compensate for the airbrake but not enough to accerate the plane.
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Offline ink

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 04:43:24 PM »
P47, hellcat, and the Ki84 take the most punishment....the 51 if you fly it like it was designed for is probably the most survivable plane..(excluding the jet)..not because it can take alot because it cant....its just so damn fast.....

Offline Karnak

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2013, 07:59:50 AM »
P47, hellcat, and the Ki84 take the most punishment....the 51 if you fly it like it was designed for is probably the most survivable plane..(excluding the jet)..not because it can take alot because it cant....its just so damn fast.....

There are faster fighters in AH than the P-51.  The P-51 is not the most survivable prop plane in AH regardless of how you fly it.  Flown to maximize speed the Tempest is more survivable down low and the P-47M and N, Ta152, Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV are more survivable up high.
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Offline ink

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #57 on: December 06, 2013, 07:24:06 PM »
There are faster fighters in AH than the P-51.  The P-51 is not the most survivable prop plane in AH regardless of how you fly it.  Flown to maximize speed the Tempest is more survivable down low and the P-47M and N, Ta152, Bf109K-4 and Spitfire Mk XIV are more survivable up high.

didn't say it was the "fastest"......

and I assumed non perk rides.

K4 cant dive or get to the speeds a 51 can....

47 and 152 ill give ya  :neener:

Offline ReVo

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2013, 12:40:56 AM »
The P47's don't compress like the 109 does at about 450 MPH.
The P47's have better stability and handling at higher speeds.
The P47's also are more resistant to parts shredding off in high speed dives.

In theory the P47 is technically better than the K4.

Better at being a brick?  :rofl
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Offline save

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Re: I will survive!
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2013, 06:09:25 PM »
K4 cant dive or get to the speeds a 51 can....

they can go up to about 550-570 mph in a dive, not far or equal to a P51, they are much less controllable during that dive though.

One member of the few (eatg) did just that, following my A8 all to the deck, I could easy out-roll him easy during pull-up phase, but I missed my shot rolling into him, and he slowed down and could soon outmanoeuvre my plane and get one 30mm to hit.

If I had more altitude he would not have caught me though since terminal dive speed is over 600mph in the A8.

I read here in the forum the spitfire had higher dive speed than the 190a, but I have never seen anyone succeeding accomplish that i AH.
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