Question for the 109 gurus

[Tank-Ace]

Bear in mind I fly with a keyboard, mouse, and basic joystick.

In my opinion, CT does a better job of trimming your aircraft than you yourself are likely to do under intense combat situations (when a precise trim setting would be most beneficial).

If you take the effort to trim your aircraft to such a level of precision, you are doing so at the expense of attention and effort put into SA and ACM.



And really, since the K4 already requires a lot of throttle and rudder work, I am of the opinion that without a HOTAS setup using a stick with a hat switch for views, a K4 pilot is at or slightly past workload capacity when the aircraft is being aggressively managed.

[Big Rat]

So...  I decided to revisit the 109s this tour.  Specifically the K4.

I think I may have had an "eureka" moment with the tater tosser this evening,

I have those with the K4, they tend to go away about as quickly though   There was a time when I went back in forth between combat trim and not, I did see some advantages with turning it off when flapped and going for a shot, but I found the extra workload of manual trim exceeded it's advantage for me anyway.  As usual, it depends on what works for you.

 
BigRat

[FLS]

Trimming for cruising speed generally works well. It leaves you trimmed nose down for slow flight, which is not a bad thing, and lets you fight without worrying about trim.

[PFactorDave]

Trimming for cruising speed generally works well. It leaves you trimmed nose down for slow flight, which is not a bad thing, and lets you fight without worrying about trim.

In the Ki84, I tend to trim it our at about 200mph which seems to work pretty well for most fights.  It's very simple to kick the CT on and back off once in awhile to make adjustments (assuming your flaps aren't out).

[Gman]

When SKuzzy said CT didn't take flaps into account, he didn't mean that flaps don't affect the CT, just that the CT doesn't take into account the lift they are producing...I think...

As I said, I have a button mapped on the throttle so it doesn't interfere with my stick/view hand, and I can switch CT off and on in a microsecond, which is what I'm usually doing in most planes, especially the 109's.  I'm not unhappy with how CT trims things out, except when the flaps are down, and that's usually the only time CT is off for me, when I have or am about to dump the flaps. 

Don't laugh, but I flew this game from 1999 until around 2005, much of it in 109s, without ever using the flaps, not even on take off or landing, as I only flew a2a fighters.  I still had a good k/d and k/t, but the odd duel I would fly around the 2005 time pretty much showed me why I would lose in turn/vert/rope fights in the MA to certain pilots who were really good at using flaps.  The reason I didn't use the flaps is I thought everyone who did was crazy as it messed up my aim so much due to the CT fighting it.  I didn't read the bbs much then, other than the o'club, and only heard "are you using flaps" on ch1/200 when questioning why I was beaten in a certain fight.  I figured it out eventually - Ignorance isn't bliss, hah.

[Thruster]

I keep a 2 way switch mapped to elevator trim up/down and a button for "ct toggle". That way I can pop ct back on instantly. Most fights I leave ct on.

[LCADolby]

When SKuzzy said CT didn't take flaps into account, he didn't mean that flaps don't affect the CT, just that the CT doesn't take into account the lift they are producing...I think...

CT trims the plane for the speed you are doing at no flaps, if you go say, a constant 120Mph and deploy flaps, the nose will raise in a 109 because the trim does not counter-act the flaps and lift generated. If you do this in a 410 the nose dips for the same reason, the CT does not counter the nose down caused by the flaps.

[JunkyII]

Thanks Batfink and FLS....makes a lot more sense now.

[Gman]

CT trims the plane for the speed you are doing at no flaps, if you go say, a constant 120Mph and deploy flaps, the nose will raise in a 109 because the trim does not counter-act the flaps and lift generated. If you do this in a 410 the nose dips for the same reason, the CT does not counter the nose down caused by the flaps.

I was being facetious....and yes, this is pretty much how I understand how CT and flaps work, and how I understood what Skuzzy meant as well.


I remember Mace doing a really good post on shooting and guns from his F14 and instructing days - he seemed to stress, at least this is how I recall it, that pulling for a shot is much, much preferred to pushing for one, so far as stick movement goes.  I'll see if I can find it, but it directly relates and is the bottom line to what I'm talking about regarding the flaps negatively affecting how I shoot.  Shooting is the one thing I do well with in this game, and that little article he wrote helped me fine tune some things. 

[JOACH1M]

Don't touch trim. I let it do it's own thing

[mtnman]

The thing I hate about CT and flap use is that the CT trims for speed, so as you slow down it feeds in more and more "up" elevator, until it eventually maxes out at full "up".

For proper trimming with flaps extended, I generally need a little "down" elevator, so full "up" elevator is a serious detriment.

As far as extra workload for the pilot, to use manual trim I essentially have zero extra workload, so that isn't a factor.  I enjoyed the benefits of both CT and manual trim, with no negatives.  Manual trim riding the edge of a stall easier and more predictable, and improved my ability to make the shots I take.

CT also trims for wings-level, which is an attitude I seldom enjoy in a fight.  You'll find me banked all over, and upside-down a fair amount of time.  While upside-down, I find full "up" trim to be more detrimental than helpful...

To eliminate extra workload, but still benefit from manual trim, I simply map a button to toggle the CT on/off.  An important part of that though is to set the CT so it's OFF by default, rather than on...  That way, if I make a mistake or bump something in a fight, the CT reverts to "off".  Suddenly, accidentally, having CT revert to "on" got me killed a bunch until I figured that out...

Next, I use an X52 stick, so I just map my trim to the rotary dials.  I then manually trim for straight/level at around 325mph, and use a fine-tip sharpie marker to mark my rotary dials (I only fly one plane of course, so trim settings never change for me...).

Once my trim dials are set, I manually turn CT ON for most "general" flying.  Anytime things get to a non-general flying situation, I just bump the CT off.  My manual trim automatically moves to its pre-set setting, based on my dials.  It does it the same every time, and it doesn't matter what my speed is.  My plane always "feels" the same, and I get a much more precise "feel" for my speed, maneuverability, etc, because I'm not having those things distorted by constantly altering trim (which, as mentioned, is often trimming detrimental to my flying habits anyway).

So, essentially, my extra workload in a fight was tapping a button with my thumb. 

In the event my target needed a bit of chasing and the speeds got back up (and mostly wings-level), I just tapped the button again to turn CT back "on" until I caught him and forced him to turn.

Even with flaps up, those pre-set trim settings make roping and either shooting or reversing at the top off the rope "oh so nice" too.

As a side-note, those manual trim settings also make landing a breeze.  Tap the manual trim button to allow the pre-sets to take over, drop flaps and gear, and the plane flies almost hands-off during approach.  And if you need to trim for a missing chunk of wing, that's no issue either...

[MickDono]

Personally I've never had any problem with combat trim on, though you may decide differently because CT trims for maximum military power at any one time and the K4 has a lot of torque to compensate for.

  Mar