F4U1C Vs F4U1A

[J.A.W.]

Off Topic, but great pix , thanks G,

The black tiled areas are the ones that get RFH on re-entry direct plasma stream exposure.

The white 'blankie' areas shown in space are indeed (AFAIK) - thermal blankets for avionics.

All of them are covering the actual metal structural skinning & are not 'skinning' in themselves.

[Golfer]

The whole thing is covered in fabric.  Fuselage, upper wings, engine cowlings, cargo doors.

Not just avionics, but darn near everything that's white.

Nothing to do with structural integrity of the craft, simply the outer layer of fabric.  Making it...fabric...

[Saxman]

& Sm, the USN knew full well that a well functioning 4 x 20mm cannon fit out was way more
 effective against any aircraft or ground target than even 8 x 50 cal MGs..

And you don't think the US would have pushed harder to get a good cannon if they felt that the .50cal they were using were inadequate. It's one thing to say something's BETTER, something else entirely to go on to saying you NEED it.

The US came up with quite a few ideas for aircraft that would certainly have been superior to what they already had. For example: The P-38K. Climb to 20,000ft in 5 minutes, clocked at 432mph with a possibility of hitting 450mph on WEP at combat loads, and all this being done with the extra weight and drag of paint. BMF would have gotten even better performance. Ultimately abandoned because the existing P-38s, P-51s and P-47s were adequate, and Lockheed declined halting current production to retool for producing the better version. Then there's the XA-38 Grizzly, cancelled because the USAAF just didn't need it anymore as their mission profile in Europe changed, even though it would have been one hell of a medium attack plane. And of course, the ever-popular P-63, which the US declined to use because what they had was already good enough and they didn't need it. Which is also why the US didn't push on getting the P-80 into combat.

You can bet that if the US military felt an overwhelming need for cannon, that one way or another they'd have made sure they got them. As it is, because the .50cal were doing a good enough job they decided to go with what was working. Teething issues were a secondary concern.

[Widewing]

Earl, a couple of points here..

You posted that you were being run down in top end speed by a 1A, while flying a 1C.

Is this due to piloting skill or fundamental speed difference?

There is a significant speed difference, especially at sea level (367 mph vs 353 mph). This is due to the -1A not having underwing stores pylons and it lacks the drag of the cannons. 14 mph is significant in a prolonged chase. Worse yet, because the -1A is lighter than the -1C, it turns better.

[J.A.W.]

G, on the F4U, the doped stretched fabric was a hangover from WW 1 type tech.
It did form the skin structure in that case, & was a primary aero, not a thermal covering..

& Sm,

The P-38K was not followed up by the USAAF since P-38 improvements weren't deemed worthwhile.
The P-38 was basically in best-by-date mode  - as far as the USAAF was concerned.

The `47 & `51 did get significant improvements, - bubble canopy, paddle blade props, ADI & etc..

Indeed, the `51H was a virtually all-new plane, sharing little with earlier variants.
The P-63 was too small to tote much as a JABO, or pack enough fuel for good endurance.


& Ww, thanks for the info you posted stat above,
& have you got accurate Vne/compressibility onset IAS figures for the F4U-1?

If the US H-S cannon was up to standard, they would've used more of them.
The British rejected the US built cannon, (& ammo) as unserviceable by their standards..

While US forces soldiered on with the less than optimal 50 cal MG, they did put plenty of effort into
alternatives, none of which panned out in time for much service use in WW 2.

[Ack-Ack]

The P-38K. Climb to 20,000ft in 5 minutes, clocked at 432mph with a possibility of hitting 450mph on WEP at combat loads, and all this being done with the extra weight and drag of paint. BMF would have gotten even better performance. Ultimately abandoned because the existing P-38s, P-51s and P-47s were adequate, and Lockheed declined halting current production to retool for producing the better version.

Lockheed was denied permission by the War Production Board to halt current production in order to retool the production lines for the P-38K.   It was unfortunate because the test mule used (believe it was a P-38G-10-L0) out performed current US fighters under production at the time, including the P-51B and P-47D.

Lockheed even proposed installing Merlin engines in the P-38 but again, that was denied by the War Production Board for the same reason they denied retooling the production line for the P-38K.

ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

The P-38K was not followed up by the USAAF since P-38 improvements weren't deemed worthwhile.
The P-38 was basically in best-by-date mode  - as far as the USAAF was concerned.

Not true.  The War Production Board denied the request because of the demand for the P-38 at the time and claimed it couldn't afford the short time the production line would be shut down (Lockheed estimated no more than two week down time) to retool the production line for the P-38K.

The War Production Board turned down Lockheed's request for the Merlin engine because at the time the Packard built Merlin engines were slated for the P-51B and the War Production Board felt that the Merlin wouldn't bring substantial improvement and also couldn't afford the stop production on the P-38 when the USA needed all the fighters it could produce at the time.

Read Warren Bodie's book sometime.

ack-ack

[J.A.W.]

Ww, thanks for that info, & do you have accurate IAS figures for F4U-1 Vne/compressibility onset?

A.A., yeah - thanks also- for confirming that significant improvements which were
ok'd for `47 & `51 - were denied for the somewhat passé P-38, & rightly so IMO, too.

Bodies book...is a fan-boi tome.. IMO - ain't worth buying,
 I'm glad I borrowed it from a library & didn't waste my money..

[Ack-Ack]

A.A., yeah - thanks also- for confirming that significant improvements which were
ok'd for `47 & `51 - were denied for the somewhat passé P-38, & rightly so IMO, too.

That was only for the proposal by Johnson to add the Merlin, the WPB thought it wouldn't be of any benefit, however, that was not the case with the P-38K.  It was denied not because the WPD didn't see any benefit, it was denied because at the time there was a pressing need for any available fighter coming off the production line, especially the P-38 which at the time were in somewhat of short of supply and couldn't keep up with demand.  The WPB felt any production stoppage of current P-38s would have a negative effect.

Again, read Warren Bodie's book.  It will put many of your 'myths' to bed.

ack-ack

[Widewing]

P-38 buzz job....

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, Bodies book has plenty of myths to go around..

He rates the P-38 as the best..
..except in his P-47 book, then it is best, cant wait for his `51 book, maybe he'll rate it best too..

& wouldn't '450 mph' actually exceed the P-38's terminally low Vne of ~440 mph?

[Widewing]

Yeah, Bodies book has plenty of myths to go around..

He rates the P-38 as the best..
..except in his P-47 book, then it is best, cant wait for his `51 book, maybe he'll rate it best too..

Warren has been dead for several years.... You'll have to take a pass on the P-51 book.

[J.A.W.]

Ww, thanks for that 'heads up' re Bodie's current writer status .

Guess I'll have to go with other Mustang info, & read about how the P-82 had the P-38s
long-range twin gig on a plate by wars end too..

The F4U on the other hand was deemed still useful by the USN & kept in production long after most any other contemporary recip' fighter/bomber.

[Widewing]

Yeah, Bodies book has plenty of myths to go around..

He rates the P-38 as the best..
..except in his P-47 book, then it is best, cant wait for his `51 book, maybe he'll rate it best too..

& wouldn't '450 mph' actually exceed the P-38's terminally low Vne of ~440 mph?

460 mph TAS at 20k, 480 mph using dive recovery flaps.

[Widewing]

Thunder and Lightning.

John and Chris exercising the Planes of Fame P-47G and P-38J.