Author Topic: ILS questions  (Read 2228 times)

Offline Toad

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2014, 05:16:59 PM »
Well what I asked was how training in the aircraft versus training in the simulator would have made a difference in the Palm 90 accident.   Or are you saying that people can't be trained to utilize the checklist in the sim as well as they can be trained to use it in the aircraft?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline earl1937

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2014, 06:34:06 PM »
Well what I asked was how training in the aircraft versus training in the simulator would have made a difference in the Palm 90 accident.   Or are you saying that people can't be trained to utilize the checklist in the sim as well as they can be trained to use it in the aircraft?
:airplane: One thing is for sure, he was not in the habit of doing everything verbatim. There are "sayings" in aviation which have a lot of truth to them: there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old,bold pilots. You can add another one to that: there are dumb pilots and smart pilots, but there are no old, dumb pilots!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Toad

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2014, 07:08:40 PM »
Well, what I'm trying to find out for SURE is whether you think training that crew in the airplane versus training that crew in the simulator would have made a difference in the outcome of the Palm 90 accident?

Do you? If so, why?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline earl1937

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 07:51:15 AM »
Well, what I'm trying to find out for SURE is whether you think training that crew in the airplane versus training that crew in the simulator would have made a difference in the outcome of the Palm 90 accident?

Do you? If so, why?
:airplane: The sim cannot alert the pilot if an optional item is missed, either on purpose or by accident, but if there is an instructor sitting next to him and knows when the de-ice equipment is supposed to be turned on, "don't you think that instructor would call his attention to that missed item on the check list"?
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Toad

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 09:08:39 AM »
Earl, in every sim I have ever been in, there has been an instructor sitting behind me who knows when the de-ice equipment is supposed to be turned on and would call my attention to that missed item on the checklist. Of course the sim does not alert you…the instructor DOES.

How is that different in any way from training in the airplane with an instructor?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Golfer

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2014, 09:09:52 AM »
Earl I think you may be underestimating the capabilities of today's simulator technology and what they are and are not capable of and how the training process works at both the training vendors such as FlightSafety provide as well as in house training centers run by individual airlines.

Offline earl1937

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2014, 09:30:13 AM »
Earl I think you may be underestimating the capabilities of today's simulator technology and what they are and are not capable of and how the training process works at both the training vendors such as FlightSafety provide as well as in house training centers run by individual airlines.
:airplane: I think everyone is misunderstanding my attitude towards training sims. Yes, they are necessary because of procedure practice, route familiarizations, ATC procedures in foreign countries and last but not least, emergencies procedures for in flight emergencies. All I am saying, byw, been through flight safety school several times to meet on going insurance requirements and etc, truly one of the great training facilities in the U.S. I just don't think you can replace that experienced instructor sitting in that right seat, who can give you insights into different situations, which the sim cannot always do.
A good example of what I am talking about is the old 3 holer, Boeing 727! When those things first hit the lines and started flying different routes and landing at different airports, pretty soon they had a couple of over run accidents, one in particular, Salt Lake city in early 70's, demonstrated the problem they were having with air "daming" up under those huge fowler flaps. What with ground effect on a hot day and those big flaps, those thing would float forever, seems like. So the captains at Eastern air lines did some experiments of their own and found that if the first officer, at about 10 feet above the runway, begin to "milk" flaps up 10 to 15 degrees and the thing landed as good as a DC-6B, which btw was the best landing multi-engine hvy which I ever had the pleasure to fly.
See, a flight sim is not going to point those little things out, but to be fair, I think they did include that procedure in future sim flights.
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Toad

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2014, 10:06:28 AM »
Really? Every time I've been in a Level D simulator, I have had a highly experienced instructor sitting right behind me conducting the simulator session. So again, what is the difference?

You're not thinking of the UAL 227 accident at SLC in '65 are you? What overrun accident are you referring to?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline earl1937

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2014, 02:47:39 PM »
Really? Every time I've been in a Level D simulator, I have had a highly experienced instructor sitting right behind me conducting the simulator session. So again, what is the difference?

You're not thinking of the UAL 227 accident at SLC in '65 are you? What overrun accident are you referring to?

:airplane: I have been researching for the past hour, made 2 long distance phone calls to former Airline Captains, one of whom, Larry Abernathy of Eastern, said that they did in fact have some problems on short runways, which was the case at Salt Lake in 65 and they, on their own, came up with the flap milking on touch down because it was real bad about floating in ground effect during hot summer days, but he couldn't remember an accident which I mentioned in prior post. Guess I mistaken. Time clutters the old brain after 60 years I guess. Anyway, good discussion guys, maybe someone will benefit from the thread.
In researching this, most of the 3 holer accidents were crashes caused by to rapid decent on approach and because the engines were slow to spool up, it took much longer to check their decent for landing. The amazing thing is the one you speak of in 1965, and they were still having same type of accident in 1989.
I never flew the most successful 3 engine jet of its day, but rode in one a couple of times. All pilots I ever talked to about really praised its flying qualities.
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Toad

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Re: ILS questions
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2014, 04:11:06 PM »
I repeat: Every time I've been in a Level D simulator, I have had a highly experienced instructor sitting right behind me conducting the simulator session. So again, what is the difference? I really would like to read your explanation.


As to the B-727, I will pay a month of AH for you if you can get Captain Abernathy to supply Eastern documentation that milking the flaps up in the flare was an approved procedure, either in their Airplane Flight Manual or in their Ops Specs. I'll wager it was not taught in their simulators as it not likely that the FAA would approve that technique.

I'll pay another month of AH for you if you can find an NTSB B-727 accident report that identifies flap setting of either 30 or 40 on a hot day as a causal factor. I think you'll find that folks that floated the B-727 simply carried way too much speed into the flare.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!