Author Topic: Un-believable !  (Read 1694 times)

Offline Toad

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 09:55:03 AM »
Complacency is the root cause.

Complacency can be a factor in both automated and hand-flown approaches.

As Golfer pointed out, in this case the automation was off and complacency was on.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline earl1937

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »
Complacency is the root cause.

Complacency can be a factor in both automated and hand-flown approaches.

As Golfer pointed out, in this case the automation was off and complacency was on.
:airplane: You guys are right I guess, but just having hard time getting my head around the fact that they didn't use any cross checks to back up their decision making. If they had, might not have happened.
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline Toad

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 12:45:18 PM »
Obviously.

That highlights the complacency.

The point is that it would not have mattered if they were automated or hand-flying.

If they failed to do the routine cross-checking that the FAA, their company and their paying passengers require/expect of them, manual flying isn't the issue. Automated approaches aren't the issue.

Failure to crosscheck is failure to crosscheck whether the autopilot or the pilot himself is manipulating the controls.

And, again, to highlight….the automation was OFF in this particular case.

It's really a basic CRM problem involving the multiple aspects of CRM. Loss of situational awareness, leadership, standard operating procedures, automation management (or lack of), decision making…they pretty much lit up the board on CRM failure.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Puma44

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 03:46:50 PM »
Obviously.

That highlights the complacency.

The point is that it would not have mattered if they were automated or hand-flying.

If they failed to do the routine cross-checking that the FAA, their company and their paying passengers require/expect of them, manual flying isn't the issue. Automated approaches aren't the issue.

Failure to crosscheck is failure to crosscheck whether the autopilot or the pilot himself is manipulating the controls.

And, again, to highlight….the automation was OFF in this particular case.

It's really a basic CRM problem involving the multiple aspects of CRM. Loss of situational awareness, leadership, standard operating procedures, automation management (or lack of), decision making…they pretty much lit up the board on CRM failure.
You appear to know all the facts and speak from a position of expertise on this event.  Are you a Souhwest pilot?



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Toad

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 05:06:51 PM »
I am not SW but I do have some experience in the biz.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2014, 05:57:19 PM »
You appear to know all the facts and speak from a position of expertise on this event.  Are you a Souhwest pilot?


....ermmmm....What's your take, Puma, if you can say?

- oldman

Offline Puma44

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2014, 11:51:45 PM »

....ermmmm....What's your take, Puma, if you can say?

- oldman
The news media experts are my source just like everyone else in here.



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline GScholz

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 04:25:13 AM »
At least they didn't land in the wrong country like Armin Faber...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline earl1937

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 08:07:35 AM »
At least they didn't land in the wrong country like Armin Faber...
:headscratch: Now there are news reports that a company dispatcher was riding jump seat! Wonder what effect his presents in the cockpit made, if any!
Blue Skies and wind at my back and wish that for all!!!

Offline GScholz

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"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Toad

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Re: Un-believable !
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2014, 11:30:03 AM »
From the link:

Quote
Faber, with only one cannon working, pulled an Immelmann turn into the sun and shot down his pursuer in a head-on attack

OMG! a RL HO dweeb! Don't let this info get out to General Discussion!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!