Author Topic: Master Limited Partnerships  (Read 1817 times)

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2015, 05:18:44 PM »
i read yesterday opec oil is much more profitable 80 to 1 where american oil is 10 to 1.  opec sticks it to america by keeping price low.

i also read refineries are doing great because the price for oil is relatively low versus the price of gas and diesel and they feds started putting more corn in the gas.

OPEC's idea is backfiring. It is true that US needs oil to be at about $100 bbl to be profitable. it is also true that OPEC wanted to continue production at it's current rate to make prices drop. The thought was that if it dropped below $80 bbl that the US production would drop. It has not dropped as much as OPEC had calculated. Now the OPEC countries are at each others throats. The smaller countries are needing cash flow and want to get the oil prices up. The larger producing countries do not want that to happen. OPEC is imploding. Only time will tell what will happen. So far OPEC's plan is shooting their self in the foot.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2015, 05:57:57 PM »
Moon dogs!  Awesome!

In the US, we have things called "Moon Pies".  I will buy one for Zack if he comes for a visit.  They are not made of meat, though.

Offline NatCigg

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2015, 06:42:26 PM »
"Moon Pies".

should we share with him star crunchs?

Online Meatwad

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 08:27:57 PM »
Production of oil is dictated by the US.

OPEC like the IMF and the EU do what they are told.


Production of oil is dictated by camels

When camels travel in groups, they are scared and the price of oil increases
When they travel by themselves, everything is calm and the price drops
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I am No-Sausage-On-Pizza-Wad.
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Offline pembquist

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 09:25:41 PM »

So, what is the major failing in MLPs? Won't they simply go back up in price and return once oil prices go back to normal?  I can't view the full article.

Well the first thing is that if you want to read a WSJ article online and you don’t have a sub you can do this: Copy the article title, paste into a google search window, click on the resulting news citation.

As to your question about the major failing of MLPs I’d like to first interject that this is amateur hour here when it comes to finance, (I count myself among the amateurs BTW,) already baldeagl said MLPs aren’t publicly traded which is simply not true, (no offense intended,) so the information you get here from me or anybody else is definitely suspect. With that out of the way I would say that as a class of investment MLPs don’t have a major failing per se but that with the oil boom and the shrunken treasury yield the MLP market got really stupid and inflated. Stupid and inflated are ideal conditions to create crap and sell it. They are also the ideal conditions for stuff that is not crap to become crap by being overleveraged. More generally it is when stuff is by definition overvalued.

Price wise and yield wise eventually things will go back to “normal” as you say, but that doesn’t mean that any particular MLP will be around by then nor that a “normal” price will be anything like it was last year or this fall or even now. An important feature of these things is that since they have to pass on 90% (i think that is what it is) of their earnings, they have to borrow in order to grow. The mystery now is how dangerous is the credit situation for any given MLP with incomes falling as they are.

I might be being simplistic but it seems to me that situation is as basic as an oversupply of capacity, (pipeline, storage, shipping, processing,) that was paid for with borrowed money at premium prices coupled with a yield environment that encouraged investors to pay too much for yield thereby driving the need to grow in order to keep the yield up causing the need to buy more capacity etc. etc..

Picture it this way: An MLP has 3 new oil tankers worth 300 million bought yesterday with borrowed money on the basis of them producing 30 million of revenue, say 5 million of that eventually was paid as a dividend and say the interest cost is 15 million, and 10 million went to operations. Now today let’s say those tankers can only produce 15 million in revenue, the interest expense today is barely covered and there is an operating loss of 10 million and no dividend. As collateral the tankers no longer meet the covenants of their financing, (there only worth a multiple of what they can make,) so that’s not good, who is going to lend you money for operations?  Hang on long enough so that those tankers can earn their keep once volume climbs or supply shrinks you’ll be ok in the long run in the sense that you’ll still be in business but miss a year or two of dividends and what does that do to the yield for your limited partners? And what does that do to your price? If you don’t hang on, those assets that you paid a premium for get sold at today’s prices or you negotiate for a healthier entity to eat you up. So how do you pick out the eaten vs the eaters and anyway this isn’t supposed to be a high risk speculative investment anyway. And then, what does THAT do to your risk premium and price in the future? (The idea being a higher risk investment should cost less for the same yield as a less risky investment.)

The numbers above have nothing to do with reality and I am really stating my suspicion rather than a deeply researched analysis so take it for what it’s worth.
Pies not kicks.

Offline zack1234

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2015, 04:34:12 AM »


Production of oil is dictated by camels

When camels travel in groups, they are scared and the price of oil increases
When they travel by themselves, everything is calm and the price drops

They play a game like checkers with camel kak, its true  :rofl

Lots of big paragraphs means you have nothing to say except your special :old:
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
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Offline pembquist

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2015, 12:02:51 PM »
No Zack, not only am I "special" but I also have lots of Very Important Things to do that I am avoiding doing. It's one of my secret talents.
Pies not kicks.

Offline zack1234

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2015, 05:17:34 PM »
I can sleep standing up
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline ghi

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2015, 06:05:43 PM »
Yes, demand is lower but prices are manipulated also via Saudi production, designed to crash Russia and Iran's economy ; won't last long, we'll see 200-500$ barrel soon, won't take long before Persia strikes Saudi Arabia, they are already in proxy war/Yemen. 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 06:13:39 PM by ghi »

Offline zack1234

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2015, 03:52:46 AM »
Iran going to attack Saudi's?  :rofl

The oil crisis in the 1970's was caused by OPEC

The African oil producers regimes broke OPEC by sellin cheap oil.

The Western powers did nothing in the last 40 years to manipulate world events,.

The wars and natural incidents are caused by marsh gas.

The west is not to blame for anything.

North Korea and China are to blame for everything :old:

There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline Brooke

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2015, 11:46:29 AM »
North Korea and China are to blame for everything :old:

And Liechtenstein!

Offline zack1234

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2015, 03:08:00 PM »
Yes!

 :old:

They sit there are think we dont know!

They are aliens!
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario

Offline ghi

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2015, 07:45:32 PM »
Iran going to attack Saudi's?  :rofl


Well ,still a proxy war but can blow up open anytime; Yemeni houthi's are armed by Iran maybe.... Russia/ China with sophisticated gear, ballistic, antitank, anti ship missile; I don't know if main media reported  today, they killed over 150 Saudis in an air base with a Russian OTR-21 Tochka missile and already sunk 7 Saudi warships;

"Twenty-three Saudi, nine Emirati, and seven Moroccan forces, including a number of commanders, were also killed in the attack. Other reports said the attack left nearly 150 casualties among the Saudi-led forces.
The surface-to-surface missile also destroyed two Patriot missile systems, three Apache helicopters, more than 50 military vehicles, all belonging to the US Blackwater Worldwide security services company. The report added that two Saudi warships were damaged while fleeing the incoming Katyusha rockets that were fired spontaneously due to the missile impact.
- See more at: http://en.alalam.ir/video/1769109#sthash.nAyhlvJY.dpuf

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security-idUSKBN0TX0FW20151214

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HlBTQljlBM

   Yemeni firing russian missile vs Saudi tank;   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqK6XHydn-I

12.12.15   Saudi bombing of port in al-Khokha, #Yemen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvW1XGv5iI8


 12.05.15  "Yemen's army and Ansarullah fighters targeted another Saudi warship in Ta'iz province early on Saturday, the seventh Saudi vessel sinking in waters offshore Yemen in the last three months."


 
 http://en.abna24.com/service/middle-east-west-asia/archive/2015/12/05/723167/story.html

« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 07:58:53 PM by ghi »

Offline zack1234

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Re: Master Limited Partnerships
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2015, 11:58:58 PM »
The Saudis are actually fighting a war instead of funding one?

Black water? mercenaries ?
There are no pies stored in this plane overnight

                          
The GFC
Pipz lived in the Wilderness near Ontario