Me 262 and Eurofighter Formation Flying

[Wildcatdad]

Yup 

(Image removed from quote.)

Great movie! Did you ever see DJango?

[Tank-Ace]

Without a doubt, the 262 is one of the most beautiful fighter planes of all time! Thanks for sharing.

GScholz, is your icon from "Inglorious Bastards"?

We need a graphics update for the 262  .

[GScholz]

Great movie! Did you ever see DJango?

Yeah, it was awesome!

[Rich46yo]

Was the Typhoon trying to vulch at the end?

I dont know why they spent so much money trying to remake the wheel. Did the world really need another 4th gen fighter at 120 m apiece? Especially when its air to ground role is highly questionable. Even its ATA role is in an era of stealth and BVR. They cant even get anyone to buy the thing outside of the Euro partners.

[artik]

I dont know why they spent so much money trying to remake the wheel. Did the world really need another 4th gen fighter at 120 m apiece? Especially when its air to ground role is highly questionable. Even its ATA role is in an era of stealth and BVR. They cant even get anyone to buy the thing outside of the Euro partners.

And what exactly the alternative do you suggest for UK, Germany?

- 30 years old design of US F-15 & F-16?
- Dassault Rafale 
- MiG-35 or Su-35?
- Super Overpriced and non-available F-22

Don't forget it isn't only about having great fighter. It is also having ind

[GScholz]

Yes, the economic/industrial aspect of government investments are often overlooked in debates like this. It's not just about getting the best plane, or the right price.

[Rich46yo]

And what exactly the alternative do you suggest for UK, Germany?

- 30 years old design of US F-15 & F-16?

Yes, the latest versions being about the same as the Eurofighter. Which BTW is a very fine 4th Gen fighter but its not truly multi-role and they cant sell the dang thing.

Yes, the economic/industrial aspect of government investments are often overlooked in debates like this. It's not just about getting the best plane, or the right price.

Bad idea to build an airplane JUST to provide jobs. The idea is to make money, like Airbus does, and its the reason EF will be the last Euro-consortium fighter made.

I just dont see this program as being successful. Not when you weigh threat/capability/cost.

The Govts involved in both the EF and Rafael say true stealth was not a design parameter because the threat level just wasnt there. Yet the lack of all aspect stealth is the very reason nobody wants to buy their fighters. Neither are cheap either.

Looking at modern History, say Falklands and later, but most of all Gulf-1 and later, and what has been the primary use of the modern fighter/bomber? It has been ground attack! 90% of the time they are bomb trucks, most of all in the modern age where all strikes will be with precision weaponry. Take out the enemies radars and integrated AA and the game is over before it even started. Opening night precision ground attacks will win or lose the war.

Thats why India refused the EF and why the Saudis have been only pretending they want it.

[GScholz]

Well... Apart from the partner nations UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, three other nations have bought the EF with a total production of more than 500 aircraft. The Saudis have ordered 72 of them, that's just one less than Spain.

As for the future of European cooperation in aircraft production it is a given that it will be under the Airbus Group, which is in part owned by among others the governments of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

However... We are now seeing the last generations of manned fighters. Europe has long since moved on to stealth UCAV development. Names to look out for in the future skies over Europe are Taranis, Barracuda, Unmanned Gripen...


... and nEUROn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSnpYYEYwY#t=344  a pan-European effort headed by Dassault.

[Rich46yo]

Lol, they have been "ordering" them for over 8 years.

Yes the future will see only one Euro consortium. Of course we said that once before when they split over the last next Gen fighter.

The end of the Cold War dried up the traditional 3rd world markets for fighter aircraft. It really hurt the French.

Kind of a pity as both are fine aircraft.

Well... Apart from the partner nations UK, Germany, Italy and Spain, three other nations have bought the EF with a total production of more than 500 aircraft. The Saudis have ordered 72 of them, that's just one less than Spain.

As for the future of European cooperation in aircraft production it is a given that it will be under the Airbus Group, which is in part owned by among others the governments of the UK, France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

However... We are now seeing the last generations of manned fighters. Europe has long since moved on to stealth UCAV development. Names to look out for in the future skies over Europe are Taranis, Barracuda, Unmanned Gripen...


... and nEUROn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSnpYYEYwY#t=344  a pan-European effort headed by Dassault.

[GScholz]

Lol, they have been "ordering" them for over 8 years.

... of which 32 have been delivered as of November 2013.

[Rich46yo]

Actually its 28, and the Saudis can afford to crap 28 airplanes. The UAE pulled out, India pulled out, the RAF cut back its order and the Saudis are haggling over the rest of THEIR order due to the price. Its possible the Saudis wont even complete their modest order. http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2527272/OPINION-Who-buy-BAEs-Eurofighter-now.html

Hey Im not rooting for the thing to fail. Its just bad timing for such a fighter in the export market. Most of all after its embarrassing debut in Libya.

[artik]

Bad idea to build an airplane JUST to provide jobs. The idea is to make money, like Airbus does, and its the reason EF will be the last Euro-consortium fighter made.

I just dont see this program as being successful. Not when you weigh threat/capability/cost.

It isn't about the jobs... it is about independence from the whatever idea comes to the leaders of a "friendly" countries and put an embargo on sales or does not provide you what you need because the government had changed or because they don't like your foreign policy.

Such a situation can bite very hard, so having local airspace industry has much more value even if the aircraft you buy would be overpriced or not 100% fit your needs (which it rather not true about the 2nd)

Want some examples?

Israel was hardly screwed up by Charles de Gaulle's embargo in 1967 when all the airforce was based on French technology.

Today Israel mostly buys "airframes" from US and fill it with Israeli avionics - like F-16I which is basically US airframe and engine, with home build avionics and weapons. Even many of modern F-16 blocks upgrades come from Israeli source, like conformal fuel tanks that were designed by IAI, the helmet mounted display etc, such that today Israeli latest F-15I and F-16I or older F-16C/D in many ways better then "similar" planes owned by USAF.

India is doing a smart thing - being independent of a single source, it has Russian Su-30MKI and MiG-29K, develops its own aircraft HAL Tejas, and buys French Rafale so even if one party would try to screw they they would still keep the airforce.

Even small Taiwan developed their own aircraft AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo because of the politics restrictions.

And USA? Try to sell something to them... they'd rather buy an overpriced system of local production, 10 years later that isn't nearly as effective as foreign alternative just not to be dependent of an external source.

So having your own airspace industries is more important than being able to buy maybe cheaper or slightly better planes. Also you can't say that Typhoon isn't one of the most advanced 4++ generation fighters...

[Rich46yo]

We have bought airplanes, or designs, from British companies. I myself saw a B59 Canberra in service. And we buy a lot of other military equipment, or co-develop, with allied nations.

But as the largest arms producer in the world it would be kinda silly to expect us to buy a lot of foreign arms.

[Zeagle]

Awesome video!

One day I would like to get some dual in the Collings foundation schulflugzeug. It is based in New Smyrna Beach, FL or maybe Texas now? Hmmm Might be a good reason to head out in the RV.

[GScholz]

But as the largest arms producer in the world it would be kinda silly to expect us to buy a lot of foreign arms.

It isn't silly at all. You do buy a lot of foreign arms. From the German gun on the Abrams to the Italian pistol your army uses as a sidearm, most of the US Army's weapons are of European origin (license-produced in the US of course).