Author Topic: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.  (Read 9838 times)

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15580
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2014, 10:03:22 PM »
A B-17 is not a hard target to kill. Not in the game, nor in the real war. Mossie is/was far more survivable.

"Against 20 Russians trying to shoot you down, or even 20 Spitfires, it can be exciting, even fun. But to curve in towards 40 Fortresses and all your past sins flash before your eyes."  Hans Philipp in a letter to Hannes Trautloft, 4 October 1943.

That's closer to my opinion.




Offline PJ_Godzilla

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2661
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2014, 10:20:11 PM »
From the Hey look what I found thread.

This data may be accurate, but for the scenario that actually occurred - one in which the vast bulk of sorties, loads delivered, and Luftwaffe focus was all 4-engined heavy. Change it up to mass formations of Mosquitos and all that data would also change. I'll grant that the interception is more difficult. However, I don't think attacking those formations was Anything like trivial. Indeed, just for an anecdote, guy sajer's book cites a raid on tempelhof in which, of the 30 190's scrambled, not a one came back without damage.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2014, 10:38:59 PM »
Mossies didn't fly in formation on the way to Berlin for a reason.  It would only make them more vulnerable.

In AH I think theTu-2S is a more useful type than the Mossie XVI though.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2014, 10:51:37 PM »
Attacking a formation of heavy bombers may have been frightening, but without fighter escort the bombers were sitting ducks. Even with fighter escort the Luftwaffe lost only one fighter for every three bombers they shot down. In 1943 the 8th AF's losses became unsustainable and they were withdrawn from Germany until the P-51 arrived in numbers in early 1944.


A nice machinima of Heinz Knocke's diaries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWoh67V-C4
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2014, 01:41:22 AM »
A-20 is freakishly tough for its weight of airplane.  The Tu-2S is a very light bomber, being only slightly heavier empty than an empty Mossie so its durability is about what I'd expect.


I went offline and set up my drones as follows...

Ju 88
He 111
Ki-67
A-20G
Mossy 16
Tu-2S

I took a P-38J and attacked each several times, from various angles.

The weakest appears to be the Mossy, followed by the Tu-2S. Next I found the Ki-67, He 111, Ju 88 and A-20G very equal, and all were very similar in absorbing damage. I think, perhaps, that the A-20G is less likely to burn....
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2014, 02:58:51 AM »
the mossy is very prone to fire and pilots wounds. In the XVI I can understand it because it had no armor, though the VI that has armor  still take PW from small calibers fired from dead 6.

It is difficult so estimate the durability of the B.XVI in game because I so rarely take hits in it. The VI is unimpressive for a twin - many single engine fighters are more durable.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2014, 03:34:44 AM »
I don't think the AH Mosquito's damage model is very faithfully reflecting it's real world construction. Losing one wing seems a little absurd to me for a start off. I assumed the Yak's extreme toughness was partially attributable to its wooden construction (although I know very little about Yaks).


"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15580
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2014, 04:02:17 AM »
A nice machinima of Heinz Knocke's diaries:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuWoh67V-C4

Wow, that is well done!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 04:04:37 AM by Brooke »

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2014, 04:28:38 AM »
Yeah, I though it was an impressive feat for a gang of sim enthusiasts.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Hoplite

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 427
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2014, 08:42:25 AM »
A B-17 is not a hard target to kill. Not in the game, nor in the real war. Mossie is/was far more survivable.

Unless the B17s are 999000, or Shawk, or one of the other B17 "experten".  Those guys end up changing the anticipation of three quick kills into a personal tragedy.  :frown:

Aimbot bastages.   :D

 


Offline hotcoffe

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 542
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2014, 09:51:47 AM »
Either unperk mosquito or perk tu2s as well...
- Der Wander Zirkus -

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23892
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2014, 09:56:26 AM »
 :lol
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2014, 10:44:34 AM »
Either unperk mosquito or perk tu2s as well...
No.  Survivability and range are massively on the Mossie's side.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2014, 10:52:24 AM »
Yeah, I though it was an impressive feat for a gang of sim enthusiasts.

Knoke was a very interesting guy. His biography is an excellent read. On August 25th, 1944, Knoke's leading his unit, joined a number of other Luftwaffe fighters scrambled in response to huge numbers of Allied fighters inbound. Knoke had recently returned to flight status after suffering a head injury when shot down in April. They ended up in a big fight with the 354th FG. Knoke shot down a P-51, while being shot down by another P-51 himself.

No one knows which Mustang Knoke clobbered. However, one P-51 returned to field A-31 badly shot-up (I forget the pilot's name). In the middle 1990s, during a review of the group's records, it was discovered that some German pilot may have deserved one more kill. How so, when it returned to base? A Bf 109 had shot out the Mustang's hydraulic system. When the pilot limped back to A-31, he attempted to lower his gear without hydraulic pressure. When the landing gear emergency release handle is pulled, the gear unlocks and will drop down partially under its own weight. The pilot shook the Mustang vigorously with the ailerons. The right gear locked. The left did not. After several failed attempts to lock it down, the pilot was ordered to bail out, rather than risk landing with one down, which he did. The P-51 was destroyed. Ironically, it was later discovered that the low time P-51 pilot had not actually followed emergency procedures. When shaking the gear down, one should do so while holding the emergency handle full back. This pilot failed to do so, and the one gear didn't lock. A pilot could also "crab" the aircraft to get some aerodynamic force to assist getting the recalcitrant gear to lock. The P-51, however, lacks the aileron force to maintain a "crabbed" attitude very long. Anyway, for this reason, a historian argued at the time that the P-51 was lost due to pilot error rather than being shot down. Naturally, there is much disagreement on this. I think some undetermined German pilot deserved the victory credit. I wonder how many of these types of losses never get reported as being due to enemy action?

It is also interesting to note that by late 1944, emergency policy evolved somewhat. When showing no hydraulic pressure due to damage resulting from enemy fire, a P-51 pilot was sometimes advised NOT to attempt to lower the gear, but perform a belly landing. The reason for this was that the hydraulic failure resulting from damage may be accompanied by other damage to structure and/or systems. Attempting to lower the gear may create a greater problem. Once a P-51 is on the ground and the engine shut off, the flaps and landing gear doors will gradually lower. Landing gear is retained up by mechanical locks, which can be manually unlocked with the emergency handle.

That said, August 25th was not a good day for the Luftwaffe in France. The 355th FG squadron of the 354th FG, was credited with 25 kills (Knoke being one of them), against three losses (including the one lost over field A-31). One 367th FG (flying P-38Ls and late J models) pilot, Capt. L. E. Blumer, shot down 5 Fw 190s in 7 minutes over St.-Quentin in his P-38L. All confirmed via gun camera and witnesses. The 367th claimed another 4 air to air, and 27 on the ground (some were bomber and transport types). That day, in France, a total of 77 Luftwaffe fighters were claimed as destroyed in air to air combat, and 27 on the ground that day by TAC pilots. 11 USAAF fighter losses were credited to all causes. Another 20 German fighters were claimed as destroyed on the ground by 20th FG Mustangs flying airdrome fighter sweeps. August 25th effectively ended the Luftwaffe's fighter presence in France.

Claims for August 25th by 8th AF and 9th AF fighters over France amounted to 77 claimed shot down, 7 damaged, plus 47 (all types) claimed destroyed on the ground. The primary goal of August 25th air ops was to destroy what remained of the Luftwaffe in France. It largely succeeded.
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline ONTOS

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1140
Re: TU-2S, the best Bomber in the game.
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2014, 11:11:24 AM »
Luv the TU-2S. Good bomb load, good speed, but defence is a little weak on the sides.