Author Topic: How the hell do you do that? (Read 2256 times)

Dingy · « **Reply #15 on:** January 30, 2001, 10:29:00 AM »

Dunno gang. I've logged quite a few hours and I have yet to see anything resembling these moves. Ive seen Torque use a hard break turn to reverse on me from 2.5K to get a 12 oclock HO snapshot but it was not anything instantaneous. I was a high G break probably well into blackout. Might be some horizontal skid component in that but there is a considerable loss of E.

The only thing I think is porked is the insane E retention of the Niki and some other planes. As others have tried, I have started loops in the Niki and can gain a tiny bit of altitude each time. The only way this is possible is if the thrust to weight ratio of that plane is greater than 1, and we all know that none of the available planes in WWII had a T/W ratio greater than 1.

-Ding

[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 01-30-2001).]

hitech · « **Reply #16 on:** January 30, 2001, 10:34:00 AM »

Dingy to gain alt each loop you do not need a T/W > 1, All you need is more thrust than drag for the requierd lift to maintain the loop. A loop is nothing more than a sustained turn as far as e retention works.

HiTech

Toad · « **Reply #17 on:** January 30, 2001, 10:40:00 AM »

Westy,

I was in that 13th TAS furball against you last night.

I think the slaute goes the other way. You did a simply fantastic job.

What TAS has is teamwork. They certainly aren't flying the best turnfighter in the arena.

They simply avoid the mistake of getting impatient. They don't all roll in on your six and try to chase you down. Instead, they make passes. While the enemy is continually turning and dodging and bleedin E from one pass, someone else is setting up for the next pass.

Eventually, we wore you down and ran you out of E. That's all it was, IMHO. You flew superbly.

Did you film that? I'd love to see it from your cockpit.

Jimdandy · « **Reply #18 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:07:00 AM »

I would just like to say that the only person I've seen do obvious cheating maneuvers is BUG322. It was in a dog fight we got in a few days ago. I hate him and I know he cheated because I lost.

No way that P-38 could out fly my 109 F-4.

I hope you read this BUG. YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

LOL <S> BUG That's still the best fight I've been in seen I got on AH. <S>!

gatt · « **Reply #19 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »

Wait a minute. I'm not saying someone is cheating here. I'm asking if such a maneuver is normal/possible or if someone is "gaming the game". If the flight model allows such things, well ... do it.

jedi · « **Reply #20 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:13:00 AM »

All flight sim FMs are a bit "questionable" at and just past the stall/spin entry "zone." In AW, there was the old "controlled spin" BS move where you could do a spin entry and recover basically at will after a half turn, or, like a helicopter, stop the spin when you were pointing at your opponent's six as he went by.

In WB and AH, the whole hammerhead/stall turn/snap roll thing is just a wee bit too predictable, and guys "master" a move that would probably work in a Pitts or Sukhoi but would be a lot less "consistent" in a big, heavy, torque-dominated weapons platform.

As good as the FM is, it still doesn't reproduce all the "consequences" of flying the plane at/past the edge of its envelope. So some buffoonery is inevitable

Dingy · « **Reply #21 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:16:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech:
Dingy to gain alt each loop you do not need a T/W > 1, All you need is more thrust than drag for the requierd lift to maintain the loop. A loop is nothing more than a sustained turn as far as e retention works.

HiTech

Yer right and I stand corrected

Still doesnt seem right tho but then again, I have no baseline to measure that statement against.

-Ding

Jimdandy · « **Reply #22 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:20:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by gatt:
Wait a minute. I'm not saying someone is cheating here. I'm asking if such a maneuver is normal/possible or if someone is "gaming the game". If the flight model allows such things, well ... do it.

I was giving BUG322 a bad time. I didn't think you were talking about cheating. It was tongue in cheek. Everyone seems to get one cheating gripe at some point in these threads, I was just using it to razz BUG. That fight seemed like it took an hour.

[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-30-2001).]

Wanker · « **Reply #23 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:38:00 AM »

Gatt, I've seen this "instant reversal" thing a few times, too. Both machine going flat out, then the front plane(I've only seen Chog and Niki able to do this) seems to just spin on it's axis and perform HO all within a matter of a couple of seconds.

Each time I've seen it happen, I don't see any appreciable change in the look of the con. In other words, I don't see his wings flare out like he's in a steep turn. The plane just seems to "spin" a 180 out of nowhere.

llbm_MOL · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2001, 11:53:00 AM »

Sounds like a net fart to me. I've never seen it. I have fought Tourque alot. He's done some amazing moves but I've never seen this. He just has good aim, very good acm, and the best SA in the arena. But he's still a suckass in my book<S>

LLB OUT!!!!!!

RebootSequence · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2001, 12:01:00 PM »

Maybe they are just pulling the handbrake.

Jimdandy · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by RebootSequence:
Maybe they are just pulling the handbrake.

LOL!!!!! That's it! That or those Westinghouse air-brakes.

JimBear · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2001, 01:08:00 PM »

I agree with LLB, I have seen this before (not in months tho) where I would be chasing a (insert plane here) and in the next instant the range counter would be decreasing and a hail of lead would follow

Each time a squaddy would ask why i went H2H with him, as I sputtered "I never saw him turn!" net farts euuuuu

JimBear

MiG Eater · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2001, 01:12:00 PM »

Gatt,

Even though the reversing airplane may gain lateral seperation, you may not be seeing it for a couple of reasons. At 2000 yds the nme airplane is fairly small and screen resolution may not be providing enough visual cues that the bandit's aspect is changing. The other reason (and I do this all the time) is that you may be keeping your nose pointing at the bandit the entire time. While there maybe a lateral or vertical change in the nme airplane's bearing (along with the resulting seperation), your own imperceptable control movements could be keeping it directly on your nose making it appear to be turning in place.

Try this next time you are in that situation to verify this may be the case: Use the level mode of autopilot so that you are not making any control inputs. If your airplane is not changing direction it will be much easier to see his changes in direction. First time I tried this I was suprised at how much space the bandit actually used to make the turn. I don't consider this tactically sound but could be good for a test. On the other hand, it may you gain seperation to help defeat a zero degree aspect head on shot.

If this test doesn't show the bandit to be moving to either side or up and down, it could be net lags or other such effects.

MiG

Sox · « **Reply #29 on:** January 30, 2001, 03:16:00 PM »

Maybe thay hit a peace of flying ice and that made em do a 180 so fast. HAY it could happen.

------------------
Evil Ace.
When a poor man dies, do not try to revive him.