Author Topic: Problem for Boeing 787?  (Read 746 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« on: June 14, 2006, 07:55:28 AM »
Could be...I'll bet Boeing is combing over the suppliers method for cooking composites!

Quote
On Wall Street: Dominic Rushe: Flaws in 787 turn dream into Boeing's nightmare
 
 
FOR Boeing the Dreamliner is more than a new aeroplane, it’s a symbol of rebirth. The engineering giant has spent the past few years getting itself out of trouble on the ground, now it’s ready for take-off.
Last month it agreed to pay the US Justice Department $615m (€487m) to end a probe into a procurement scandal that put one of its executives behind bars. The company has had three chief executives in as many years. One of them left after trumpeting a new code of ethics and was then caught sending smutty e-mails to his underling lover.

 
 
Ah, but the Dreamliner. Among its improvements over current aircraft the new Boeing offers bigger windows, roomier storage bins and an air system that allows greater humidity so passengers don’t get dehydrated. It is even set up to accommodate a 19in-wide seat in economy class — 2in more than the seats on Boeing’s 737s and 757s. Comfy!

All this is made possible by a fuselage that is mostly built of carbon-fibre composite materials — basically a high-tech plastic shell. The 787 will be the first large commercial jetliner with a mostly composite airframe. The lighter frame will make the aircraft more fuel-efficient than today’s jets and its hard, cast structure also allows for far longer maintenance intervals.

Boeing has been radical with not just the design but also the production. The Dreamliner is being built using extreme outsourcing. Rival companies have been cajoled into working together to provide different parts, with 43 suppliers on three continents.

It’s a radical way to make a radical plane and buyers love it. In two years, Boeing has secured 350 orders and 40 commitments. It is sold out for the first two years of production, a mighty blow against Airbus, its European challenger, and its A350.

Airbus has been forced to rethink its plans because of the success of the Dreamliner and has admitted it greatly underestimated the 787.

It seemed Boeing was back in the air after years of scandal and playing catch-up to Airbus. Now, however, cracks are also starting to appear in Boeing’s dream.

According to Business Week magazine, last month, engineers at Boeing’s Developmental Centre in south Seattle discovered worrisome bubbles developing in the skin of the fuselage.

The Dreamliner’s body is fabricated from a wide tape made from loosely woven, super-strong carbon fibres soaked in a mixture of polymers. The gooey tapes are cooked in a mould where the heat transforms them into a super-hard structure.

But the size of the fuselage sections means multiple layers of carbon-fibre tape are required and each added layer increases the likelihood of flaws such as bubbles.

These are bad enough in wallpaper but, at altitude, they could freeze and expand, raising the possibility of cracks.

Boeing told Business Week its engineers were confident the problem would be fixed — and blamed a bad mould. But there have also been problems with the vast network of suppliers, some of whom are usually fierce competitors, now working as team-mates.


Bad news for Boeing doesn’t let Airbus off the hook. The European company reported its slowest month of the year last week.

In May it received orders for just six aircraft. Many airlines hold back from making orders until after the annual Farnborough Air Show in late July, so Airbus is expected to make some big announcements then.

Whether Airbus has a radical enough plan to take advantage of what may be teething problems for the new Boeing remains to be seen. In the meantime, there are some dark clouds hanging over the Dreamliner.  

 
 

Offline Chairboy

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2006, 10:48:52 AM »
NEWSFLASH: New products and technology development occasionally have challenges!  Film at 11!  In the meantime, EVERYBODY PANIC!
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Offline Hangtime

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2006, 11:17:40 AM »
Bubbles in laminates are no big whup. They'll get it fixed.
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Offline Goomba

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2006, 12:26:52 PM »
OTOH, Airbus just lost a major, 29-plane Singapore Airlines sale to Boeing due to ongoing and persistent production and delivery delays, as well as complaints about certain design elements.

All a matter of 'journalistic perspective', I suppose...

Offline Ripsnort

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2006, 01:40:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Goomba
OTOH, Airbus just lost a major, 29-plane Singapore Airlines sale to Boeing due to ongoing and persistent production and delivery delays, as well as complaints about certain design elements.

All a matter of 'journalistic perspective', I suppose...
Yeah, our stock is up $4.13 cents as of 11:39am PST.

Offline Bodhi

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2006, 04:33:59 PM »
Looks like Quantas, Emirates and a few others are rethinking their commitment to Crapbus, err I mean Airbus.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060614/ap_on_re_eu/france_airbus
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Offline LePaul

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2006, 04:36:41 PM »
Wow...


Airlines around the world punished Airbus on Wednesday for delays in the delivery of its A380 superjumbo, demanding compensation, reconsidering orders — and in one case, striking a major deal with its rival Boeing Co.

Shares in Airbus' parent company crashed and Boeing's soared as repercussions of the production problems with the world's biggest passenger plane resonated throughout the industry.

They also raised questions about the European planemaker's management and strategy, and the future of the double-decker A380. Boeing is staking its bets on a smaller, more fuel-efficient model.

Singapore Airlines, one of the world's top carriers and the first to buy the A380, said it was unhappy with the delays Airbus announced Tuesday. It demanded compensation and, on Wednesday, worsened the blow by announcing it would buy 20 Boeing 787-9 aircraft worth $4.52 billion and take options on another 20 planes.

Emirates Airlines, another sought-after buyer, said it was reconsidering its order of 45 A380s. Australia's Qantas Airways said it was seeking talks with Airbus over its orders for 12 A380s and wants some of its money back. Malaysia Airlines said it was reviewing terms of its deal for six of the planes.

Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. saw billions of dollars wiped off its value Wednesday as shares plummeted by 26 percent to close at 18.80 euros ($23.63), after it warned that operating profit would be cut by about 500 million euros ($625 million) each year between 2007 and 2010.

Shares in Boeing Co., meanwhile, rose 5 percent to $80.88 on the New York Stock Exchange.

The dismal day for Airbus reflected a sharp shift in the Toulouse, France-based company's fortunes since the 555-passenger A380 took a triumphant maiden flight last year over the Pyrenees. Airbus overtook Boeing in order numbers in 2001 and in deliveries in 2003 and until recently looked in robust shape.

But the anger fueled by Tuesday's announcement of production bottlenecks with the plane's electrical systems — the second major delay for the $300 million A380 — suggests a less rosy future for the planemaker.

"Boeing is eating Airbus' lunch, certainly this year. And they'll do it again next year and for the foreseeable future, unless Airbus can pull a rabbit out of a hat," said Jim Smith, aviation analyst and editor of Jane's Transport Finance.

It was the second Airbus project to falter in recent years, after the A350, which it hoped would be the answer to Boeing's 787.

The Singapore-Boeing deal stung especially deep because Airbus had hoped Singapore Airlines would be one of the first and biggest customers for the A350. But airline dissatisfaction with the A350 has forced Airbus to redesign some of its parts and consider a costly overhaul, delaying its launch for several years.

Airbus insisted Wednesday that it was not the A380 itself but minor production problems at fault for the delay.

"There have been minor production issues which have accumulated into a large number and require a complete, very detailed rethinking of the installation process of wires and harnesses," said Thore Prang, spokesman for the company in Hamburg. "It has nothing to do with the aircraft."

The A380 delay "couldn't be a worse timing for Airbus," said aviation analyst Richard Pinkham of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation. "Especially as it comes on the heels of the PR problems they had with the A350."

With the A380, Airbus was taking a risk, since only a few of the world's airports have runways long enough and terminals that can be modified to deal with its double deckers, analysts said.

Airbus wagered that the airline industry would increasingly offer large flights to international hubs. But Boeing bet that air travel would be marked by the need for fuel efficiency and long-haul flights and is focusing on the 330-passenger 787.

"EADS made a strategic error by opting for a jumbo-sized jet rather than a fuel efficient model, especially if the price of oil increases further," said Matthieu Raimbault of French brokerage Viel Tradition.

Singapore was the first carrier to buy the A380, ordering 10 with an option to purchase another 15. Airbus said the first delivery to Singapore was still expected by the end of this year.

But deliveries will likely be limited to nine in 2007 instead of the 20 to 25 initially planned, Airbus said, with an additional shortfall of five to nine A380 deliveries expected in 2008 and "around five" in 2009.

Emirates Airlines said it was told to expect a six-month delay. "We are considering our position and will be engaging with the manufacturer over the next few weeks," the airline said in a statement.

Airbus' chief commercial officer, John Leahy, confirmed that the company will incur more late delivery penalties, but declined to provide a figure. It could in theory also face order cancellations.

EADS co-CEO Noel Forgeard, who in 2000 oversaw the launch of the A380 as the head of Airbus, deflected suggestions that the setback could cost him his job.

"We have now to find the right ways forward," Forgeard said in a conference call Wednesday.

The troubles at Airbus damage the credibility of EADS management and may bleed over into its defense business.

Already they hit BAE Systems PLC, which owns 20 percent of Airbus but has been seeking to sell its stake. BAE dismissed concerns that the Airbus problems would hurt the price it could get for its stake, and its shares came off earlier lows to end the day down 1.1 percent at 345 pence ($6.35) on the London Stock Exchange.


Offline Ripsnort

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 05:09:48 PM »
Wow is right! :O  I guess someone didn't teach EADS how to treat customers as "Guests".

Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Wow...


Airlines around the world punished Airbus on Wednesday for delays in the delivery of its A380 superjumbo, demanding compensation, reconsidering orders — and in one case, striking a major deal with its rival Boeing Co.

Shares in Airbus' parent company crashed and Boeing's soared as repercussions of the production problems with the world's biggest passenger plane resonated throughout the industry.

They also raised questions about the European planemaker's management and strategy, and the future of the double-decker A380. Boeing is staking its bets on a smaller, more fuel-efficient model.

Singapore Airlines, one of the world's top carriers and the first to buy the A380, said it was unhappy with the delays Airbus announced Tuesday. It demanded compensation and, on Wednesday, worsened the blow by announcing it would buy 20 Boeing 787-9 aircraft worth $4.52 billion and take options on another 20 planes.

Emirates Airlines, another sought-after buyer, said it was reconsidering its order of 45 A380s. Australia's Qantas Airways said it was seeking talks with Airbus over its orders for 12 A380s and wants some of its money back. Malaysia Airlines said it was reviewing terms of its deal for six of the planes.

Airbus parent European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. saw billions of dollars wiped off its value Wednesday as shares plummeted by 26 percent to close at 18.80 euros ($23.63), after it warned that operating profit would be cut by about 500 million euros ($625 million) each year between 2007 and 2010.

Shares in Boeing Co., meanwhile, rose 5 percent to $80.88 on the New York Stock Exchange.

The dismal day for Airbus reflected a sharp shift in the Toulouse, France-based company's fortunes since the 555-passenger A380 took a triumphant maiden flight last year over the Pyrenees. Airbus overtook Boeing in order numbers in 2001 and in deliveries in 2003 and until recently looked in robust shape.

But the anger fueled by Tuesday's announcement of production bottlenecks with the plane's electrical systems — the second major delay for the $300 million A380 — suggests a less rosy future for the planemaker.

"Boeing is eating Airbus' lunch, certainly this year. And they'll do it again next year and for the foreseeable future, unless Airbus can pull a rabbit out of a hat," said Jim Smith, aviation analyst and editor of Jane's Transport Finance.

It was the second Airbus project to falter in recent years, after the A350, which it hoped would be the answer to Boeing's 787.

The Singapore-Boeing deal stung especially deep because Airbus had hoped Singapore Airlines would be one of the first and biggest customers for the A350. But airline dissatisfaction with the A350 has forced Airbus to redesign some of its parts and consider a costly overhaul, delaying its launch for several years.

Airbus insisted Wednesday that it was not the A380 itself but minor production problems at fault for the delay.

"There have been minor production issues which have accumulated into a large number and require a complete, very detailed rethinking of the installation process of wires and harnesses," said Thore Prang, spokesman for the company in Hamburg. "It has nothing to do with the aircraft."

The A380 delay "couldn't be a worse timing for Airbus," said aviation analyst Richard Pinkham of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation. "Especially as it comes on the heels of the PR problems they had with the A350."

With the A380, Airbus was taking a risk, since only a few of the world's airports have runways long enough and terminals that can be modified to deal with its double deckers, analysts said.

Airbus wagered that the airline industry would increasingly offer large flights to international hubs. But Boeing bet that air travel would be marked by the need for fuel efficiency and long-haul flights and is focusing on the 330-passenger 787.

"EADS made a strategic error by opting for a jumbo-sized jet rather than a fuel efficient model, especially if the price of oil increases further," said Matthieu Raimbault of French brokerage Viel Tradition.

Singapore was the first carrier to buy the A380, ordering 10 with an option to purchase another 15. Airbus said the first delivery to Singapore was still expected by the end of this year.

But deliveries will likely be limited to nine in 2007 instead of the 20 to 25 initially planned, Airbus said, with an additional shortfall of five to nine A380 deliveries expected in 2008 and "around five" in 2009.

Emirates Airlines said it was told to expect a six-month delay. "We are considering our position and will be engaging with the manufacturer over the next few weeks," the airline said in a statement.

Airbus' chief commercial officer, John Leahy, confirmed that the company will incur more late delivery penalties, but declined to provide a figure. It could in theory also face order cancellations.

EADS co-CEO Noel Forgeard, who in 2000 oversaw the launch of the A380 as the head of Airbus, deflected suggestions that the setback could cost him his job.

"We have now to find the right ways forward," Forgeard said in a conference call Wednesday.

The troubles at Airbus damage the credibility of EADS management and may bleed over into its defense business.

Already they hit BAE Systems PLC, which owns 20 percent of Airbus but has been seeking to sell its stake. BAE dismissed concerns that the Airbus problems would hurt the price it could get for its stake, and its shares came off earlier lows to end the day down 1.1 percent at 345 pence ($6.35) on the London Stock Exchange.


Offline Makarov9

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2006, 05:28:12 PM »
Everyone knows socialist make the best planes EVAR!

Offline Chairboy

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2006, 05:31:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Makarov9
Everyone knows socialist make the best planes EVAR!
In Soviet Russia, Tupolev makes _you!_ ....into modern art decorating a nearby mountain or forest.
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Offline Debonair

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2006, 06:47:19 PM »
One cannot insult Tupolev without having also slighted Boeing

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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2006, 06:52:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Debonair
One cannot insult Tupolev without having also slighted Boeing
Oh?  I missed the 1994 US embassy memo instructing employees not to fly Boeing because of its terrible safety record.  

BTW, it wasn't a Tupolev jab insomuch as it was a 'socialist built aircraft' jab.  Modern Tupolevs are fine, I'm sure, but they're also not built quite the same way they used to be because of a handful of slight changes in the economic structure of that region during the last 20 years.  You may have read about some of them in the paper?
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Offline Debonair

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Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 07:02:35 PM »
it was a Tu-4 reference
Tu-4 in AH!!!!!!11!!!:noid :noid :noid :noid :aok

Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2014, 09:53:50 AM »
8 year old thread, just an FYI.

Another outsourcing issue.
Mitsubishi makes the wing.
40 planes affected (none delivered affected)
Now it makes sense why Boeing is keeping the manufacturing of the new-technology 777x wing in Everett WA.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Wing-cracks-lead-to-Dreamliner-production-delay-249094261.html

The worst part of all of this is the stupid CEO's who made these decisions to outsource 95% of the plane are long gone. Short term bad decisions create long term issues.

Right now, Boeing has brought about 15% of that work back in house. They figured it out, it's not only cheaper to do it in house, but the turn-around time is double!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 09:56:14 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline Dragon

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Re: Problem for Boeing 787?
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2014, 11:38:55 AM »
Yeah, fortunately, many American companies are starting to realize that outsourcing to 3rd world countries or repressed labor factories produce a toejamty product.  Now if the "American" car companies would understand this, we might make a descent vehicle in the near future that doesn't carry the Honda, Toyota or Mercedes badge.
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