Author Topic: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"  (Read 3289 times)

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2014, 09:52:40 AM »
Katanso, you mark two weakness I have.  I am weak on mentally resetting my plan after the first merge.  Second, on offense, I push too hard for the kill instead of waiting for the defender to make a mistake so it ends up me making the mistake.

Btw, a kind of philosophical kind of way that I fight is: I fly very loose like water. Like water following how the terrain forms around it, I fly according to how the fight forms around me.  I never go into any fight with 1 set plan and stick to just that. The absolute very second I get to icon range and see what kind of plane match up I have on my hands, I start planning out multiple scenarios in my head. What is the most immediate thing I want to do in this situation and match up? Do I want to pick up more speed? Do I want to gain more altitude? Should I fly a bit more passively and wait for my opponent to make a mistake? Or should I be aggressive and go right for the attack? What if I can not achieve the most immediate thing that I want to? What if I can not gain the altitude that I want? I need to have a back up plan for that very scenario. Ok, I am not going to get the altitude I want, so I'll do this instead! This can be pretty overwhelming at first, but after a while you'll start to recognize certain situations where you want to do specific things, and then do other specific thing if you can not achieve what you initially wanted, and so on and so forth.

If the water wants to go right, but the the terrain forces the water to go left, then the water has to flow with the terrain and go right. If I want to pull a certain maneuver, but it's going to get me killed, then I do not pulled that maneuver. Instead, I pull the move that the immediate situation calls for!

No fight has a set in stone way of fighting. Every single fight is different, and you have to react immediately to how the fight develops. Even if the fights are a same plane match up. Say a 109G2 vs a P-47D-40. Let's say both planes are co-alt and same speed. BOTH planes could pull a wide variety of different moves in the merge alone, and every single one of those moves has another set of different moves that both planes can pull. Those moves as well have another set of moves that both planes can pull. This is just 1 specific scenario as well. Let's say the 109G-2 is 50mph faster than the P47D40 on a Co-alt merge. The same principle applies. Both planes have a wide variety of different moves they can pull that are different from the previous scenario, and those moves lead to more moves that both planes can pull, and so on and so on. Let's say the 109G-2 is 100mph faster than the P47D40 on a co-alt merge. Yet again both planes have another wide variety of moves they can both pull that are yet again different from the previous two scenarios, and yet again those moves lead to an even more vast array of different moves. We've only been discussing speed differences too! We have to take into account altitude differences as well as speed differences. We also have to take into account the different strengths and weaknesses of both aircraft (which alone, can be quite A LOT!). The short story here is, I have NEVER.... NEVER!!!... been in two fights that have been the same in my 7+ years of playing this game. Even when the plane match up was exactly the same!

You might feel overwhelmed with all these decision makings at first, but eventually you will start to build a wealth of knowledge of things to do and not to do in specific scenarios. Ok, I have an A6M off my 9 o'clock and I'm in a P-51D. My speed is 275mph while he appears to be closing on me from slightly higher than me. I need to do this in order to win this fight, but if I can not achieve this then I need to to this or this, or maybe even this which will set me up for a better position as well.

Offline wpeters

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2014, 02:56:25 PM »
If your opponent has reduced throttle in this example as he dives to you. Your turn gives him a 3.0 radii lead window for a snap shot you are flying yourself through. In the case of a P51 boring in at 450. His energy state will make that shot problematical but, if he slows down like a spit8 vet will often do, you will have a nice dance film. Many 109F pilots like Latrobe in the game will have a poni scoobi snack in a few moves if the poni slows down for the attack. The spit8 will hit wep and yoyo or reset if he has experience upon missing the 3.0 radii window.

Most players will never bother to learn gunnery, so these write ups by Lathrobe are survival gems for our environment. In ww2 you were supposed to shoot your enemy, not have a dance contest with him. ACM like we worship in this game was the last resort because you screwed up killing your enemy during your attack and didn't get separation.


How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall.  I can hardly hit anything when I am on them.  I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.
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Offline ink

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2014, 03:02:00 PM »

How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall.  I can hardly hit anything when I am on them.  I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.

not to answer for bustr....

but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok

Offline -ammo-

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2014, 03:22:01 PM »
Thanks Latrobe and those that contributed to this discussion. 

My gunnery is decent; better than 9%

My offensive tactics (with an advantage); OK

My defensive tactics; royally suxxor

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Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2014, 04:30:16 PM »

How is a good way to learn to shoot. That is my downfall.  I can hardly hit anything when I am on them.  I am a horrible shot but I dont know what to do to get better.

What INK Says...

not to answer for bustr....

but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok


Is very helpful. Bustr has some great training sites and I hope he posts them with a "brief"  :rofl write up on how to use them.

Some things to do to help you...

Films your fights, watch the film and pause them when you fire shots that you hit with.  While paused check the distance you are to the target. Keep a record and after awhile you'll see your self firing at the same general ranges. Set your convergence to what ever that range is.

You'll hear "get close, then get closer!", but if your always shooting around the 400 range then that is where you want the best punch.

Fly smooth. the less you jerk around the better you will be able to put rounds where you want them.

Don't force the shot. If you dive in pull your lead and the target moves farther than you thought it would and you don't have the shot you set up for, don't force a shot, ease off the stick zoom away and come back for another pass. If turnin n and a burnin, keep with it until you set up another shot. Forcing it here will throw you wayyyyy out of position and give the shot to the other guy.

Once you start getting hits at your convergence, and learn to be smooth, and learn which shots to take and when not to force the issue, THEN pull your convergence in and get closer.

By doing these things I went from 2% (which is about average BTW) to being able to stay in the 5% area.

oh, and one other little thing.....





























PRACTICE!   :rofl 

Offline bustr

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2014, 05:23:32 PM »
not to answer for bustr....

but I found staying in 1 plane has helped tremendously :aok

------------------------
Sorry Fugi,

Brief would only be if I talked to wpeters in the TA or someplace like that. Gunnery is simpler to speak about. It just takes a lot of words when you write about it.
------------------------
INK is correct.

Many players fly a number of rides for various reasons. All of them have completely different ballistic outcomes due to the combination of the rides nature and guns. Flying a ride for longer than a single tour will teach you that ride along with the gunnery "for that ride". Question will be, if you learn the gunnery as a reflex, effectively the icing on your ACM cake. Or as a premeditated function in that ride. Still many of us over the years have experienced the cloitus interruptus at the end of an ACM dance when what looked like a done deal, was a clean miss.

Shooting from a wing gun mounted centric fighter or nose\HUB gun mounted centric fighter are two different dog breeds of shooting. But, all dogs are biologically the same. Constantly switching between rides of these types versus different rides of the same type, will confuse gunnery very effectively unless you are very talented at ACM or gunnery itself.

If you are jumping between different fighters every week, gunnery will be confusing other than very close in shooting with little to no deflection. Why Latrobe's ACM analysis are so vital to read. Reflexively your best shooting will be in the ride you spend the most time. And this will be directly due to learning your shooting as a reflex over time in that seat.

As for premeditation, that's any one's guess because the rounds from different guns take a different amount of time to reach 1000ft. Which means whatever you use to gauge your 100mph radii changes for different guns due to their RPM and ft\sec. Then add into that deflection while diving, or climbing, and the effect of E during those maneuvers. Flying a single ride longer than a single tour is the starting point to learning premeditated gunnery. This is easier for players like INK and myself to say with how long we each have been in this game. As a general rule, time and repetition breads efficiency.

=============================================

wpeter's,

Hitech's offline drone circle flys the drones at about the same speed gunnery targets were towed in ww2. Basic AAF fixed gunnery training by 1944 in the U.S. was conducted from AT6 mounted with 30.cal and using a 70Mil\65mph ring. From that you learned the basics of fixed gun aerial shooting. You were expected to learn on the job once you got to your combat posting. Ie., your new unit was supposed to bring you up to speed on using a 101Mil\100mph ring and 50cal armament.

So in the offline drone ring, turn on the LCG green cross and fly against the drones from all angles but dead 6. Watch the relationship of the green LCG cross from 400 and closer to whatever you are using as your 100mph radii gauge displayed in your gunsight reflector plate. Be careful, it's very easy to be lazy and shoot past 400 and decide you have the concepts nailed down. In the MA, your combat shots are all inside of 400 happening faster than you think.

Not all soldiers have the skill that a sniper does to hit at 1000yd. But, all soldiers including the sniper at the beginning were taught the same shooting skills in the same way. Stay in the same ride for 3 months. Everyday spend 15-20 minutes in the drone circle with the LCG turned on attacking drones at all angles except for dead 6 shooting only at 400 and closer. Then enter the MA. I use planes like the yak3, Ki43, Brewster, Hurri and 109E for their small size. There is a limited window for rounds to touch something in a 90 degree snap shot from 400 with them. Having a smaller profile leaves you very little room for not being premeditated in your shooting.

Don't worry that they are flying under 300mph in the circle. If you are dancing ACM close in with someone and using throttle management properly, how fast is he or you really traveling? 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Randy1

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2014, 10:00:04 PM »
Btw, a kind of philosophical kind of way that I fight is: I fly very loose like water.


I fly loose like day old concrete.  Well, not that bad but still stiff.  I see your point and it is a good one.

Offline Debrody

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2014, 07:38:09 AM »
Thanks Latrobe and those that contributed to this discussion.  

My gunnery is decent; better than 9%

My offensive tactics (with an advantage); OK

My defensive tactics; royally suxxor
Be radical. Reverse, overshoot agressively while trying to maintain your E and only losing it when the opponent is suckered into a situation he cannot escape from. But then, chop throttle, kick the rudder, open the flaps, use both your turn rate and roll rate as violently as its possible.
It worked quite well for me - was flying a 190D, often defensively.
AoM
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2014, 08:13:32 AM »
Randy1 if you see "Cargnico" online in the MA and want some practice duels in the just send me an ingame PM. I'd be happy to observe and to help.
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Offline wpeters

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2014, 10:00:08 AM »
------------------------
Sorry Fugi,

Brief would only be if I talked to wpeters in the TA or someplace like that. Gunnery is simpler to speak about. It just takes a lot of words when you write about it.
------------------------
INK is correct.

Many players fly a number of rides for various reasons. All of them have completely different ballistic outcomes due to the combination of the rides nature and guns. Flying a ride for longer than a single tour will teach you that ride along with the gunnery "for that ride". Question will be, if you learn the gunnery as a reflex, effectively the icing on your ACM cake. Or as a premeditated function in that ride. Still many of us over the years have experienced the cloitus interruptus at the end of an ACM dance when what looked like a done deal, was a clean miss.

Shooting from a wing gun mounted centric fighter or nose\HUB gun mounted centric fighter are two different dog breeds of shooting. But, all dogs are biologically the same. Constantly switching between rides of these types versus different rides of the same type, will confuse gunnery very effectively unless you are very talented at ACM or gunnery itself.

If you are jumping between different fighters every week, gunnery will be confusing other than very close in shooting with little to no deflection. Why Latrobe's ACM analysis are so vital to read. Reflexively your best shooting will be in the ride you spend the most time. And this will be directly due to learning your shooting as a reflex over time in that seat.

As for premeditation, that's any one's guess because the rounds from different guns take a different amount of time to reach 1000ft. Which means whatever you use to gauge your 100mph radii changes for different guns due to their RPM and ft\sec. Then add into that deflection while diving, or climbing, and the effect of E during those maneuvers. Flying a single ride longer than a single tour is the starting point to learning premeditated gunnery. This is easier for players like INK and myself to say with how long we each have been in this game. As a general rule, time and repetition breads efficiency.

=============================================

wpeter's,

Hitech's offline drone circle flys the drones at about the same speed gunnery targets were towed in ww2. Basic AAF fixed gunnery training by 1944 in the U.S. was conducted from AT6 mounted with 30.cal and using a 70Mil\65mph ring. From that you learned the basics of fixed gun aerial shooting. You were expected to learn on the job once you got to your combat posting. Ie., your new unit was supposed to bring you up to speed on using a 101Mil\100mph ring and 50cal armament.

So in the offline drone ring, turn on the LCG green cross and fly against the drones from all angles but dead 6. Watch the relationship of the green LCG cross from 400 and closer to whatever you are using as your 100mph radii gauge displayed in your gunsight reflector plate. Be careful, it's very easy to be lazy and shoot past 400 and decide you have the concepts nailed down. In the MA, your combat shots are all inside of 400 happening faster than you think.

Not all soldiers have the skill that a sniper does to hit at 1000yd. But, all soldiers including the sniper at the beginning were taught the same shooting skills in the same way. Stay in the same ride for 3 months. Everyday spend 15-20 minutes in the drone circle with the LCG turned on attacking drones at all angles except for dead 6 shooting only at 400 and closer. Then enter the MA. I use planes like the yak3, Ki43, Brewster, Hurri and 109E for their small size. There is a limited window for rounds to touch something in a 90 degree snap shot from 400 with them. Having a smaller profile leaves you very little room for not being premeditated in your shooting.

Don't worry that they are flying under 300mph in the circle. If you are dancing ACM close in with someone and using throttle management properly, how fast is he or you really traveling? 

Thanks a lot bustr.

Quick question of how to turn the green crosshair on. Also is some way to take more ammunition up there with you
LtCondor
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The difference between Dweebs and non dweebs... Dweebs have kills

Offline Randy1

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2014, 10:46:31 AM »
Randy1 if you see "Cargnico" online in the MA and want some practice duels in the just send me an ingame PM. I'd be happy to observe and to help.

I really appreciate the offer.  Will do.

Offline bustr

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2014, 06:17:55 PM »
Thanks a lot bustr.

Quick question of how to turn the green crosshair on. Also is some way to take more ammunition up there with you

You will have to do this in the arena setup for every map you change to offline.

How to enable the following for offline.

1. - Lead Computing Gunsight and Dive Bombing Sight.

2. - .001 Fuel Burn rate.

3. - 10x Ammo.

Clipboard ---> Options
Arena Setup
Environment
Arena Settings

(General Tab)
FlightModeFlags---> Change Button
Dive Bombsight {x}
Lead Computing Gunsight {x}
OK Button then Save

FuelBurnRateMulti---> Change Button
0.001
OK Button then Save

Note: You may have to click on the Weapons tab then click on another and back on the Weapons tab to get the list to populate.

(Weapons Tab)
ManGunnerAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneAutoAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
PlaneGunAmmoMulti---> Change Button
10
OK Button to each then Save

When chasing drones, hit the TAB key to enable the green cross and cycle focus between the drones. When testing rockets or bombing, when you hit the ordinance select key, the green dive bomb cross will show up.

If you are using my Historic Pack where each gunsight has a mil file. If you are using a gunsight with a main ring to judge lead. Try editing the mil file and experiment with changing the very top number between 256, 384, and 400. This will cause you to have to move your default view forward a bit if you don't use TrackIR in 6-axis mode. By doing this you are changing the relationship of the ring radii as a mph gauge to 1000ft. 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline RotBaron

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2014, 04:36:40 AM »
good stuff fellas

 :salute
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline morfiend

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2014, 04:38:37 PM »
 Bustr,   you need to enable friendly lock with CRTL and TAB first then tab the target A/C to see the LCG.

  Just a slight mistake but then I'd hate to see someone come in here and give you grief over it!



    :salute

Offline bustr

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Re: Another Fighter Pilot Tip: Overshoots, creating "angles"
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2014, 05:29:33 PM »
Bustr,   you need to enable friendly lock with CRTL and TAB first then tab the target A/C to see the LCG.

  Just a slight mistake but then I'd hate to see someone come in here and give you grief over it!



    :salute

Morph,

I haven't had to use that for a few years. Every time I've performed a clean install now, all I do is what I posted above in the arena setup and start hitting TAB to highlight the drones. I remember having to do it back around 2006ish. I've tried looking for an entry in the settings folder (cfg) files holding that value {CTRL_TAB, (1)} since I regularly backup my folders and copy them forward after a reinstall. But, on a number of occasions since 2006 I've started from scratch recreating all settings by hand except CTRL_TAB.

Am I just very lucky or has something changed. I don't want to confuse anyone trying to use the LCG tool offline. Can you verify this, and if I'm in error, I'll update my AH notebook.

Once you know 50Mil = 100mph at 333yds. The LCG offline, with the drones flying between 200-250 around the circle, becomes a great tool.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.