Bf109 MG151/15 Variant.

[Les Paul]

I've always...Wanted to fly the 109F-2 with the MG-151/15. Much much much higher muzzle velocity. Extra 6-8mm of armor penetration. With this cannon, I think that my cockpit/fuselage orientated shots would be so much more effective...

So the power decreases more with range because the lack of HE explosives packed into the shell... I don't shoot from far away usually 200-400... Cant tell you how many times I smacked a cockpit with a 20mm, or the fuselage right behind the pilot with a trajectory that seemingly puts the pilot in my bullets path... And nada... Not even a pilot wound... That extra 6-8mm... Might...Might just make a difference.

I would be happier if you just slapped a MG151/15 motorcannon loadout on the F4...Since you took away our gunpods (Not that I would ever use these o.o).

I understand that the typical production F4 had only the MG151/20, but from what I understand the Germans utilized several sub-variants in limited of the 109F4 that featured things like the BMW 801 Radial Engine, some had elongated wings, others had internally wing mounted cannons, various propeller sizes... Perhaps even a few still retained the MG151/15 nose cannon? I know Galland's F4 (Or was it an F2?) "Special" featured the internally mounted wing cannons, and he even got a cigarette lighter in his cockpit.

...If you can't make the F2, or my far-fetched F4 idea work...

...At the very least, since you gave the FM2(?) or one of those Navy Planes that bottle of Jim Beam...

...At least give my 109F4 a cigarette lighter...

[Slade]

+1

[SmokinLoon]

I'd like to see an option for the 15mm in the hanger for the 109F-4.   

[Latrobe]

I'd like to see an option for the 15mm in the hanger for the 109F-4.   

I would also like to see a 109F2 

[bustr]

The MG151\15 had everything from solid ball rounds, AP with Karbid core, to HE with fuse. So can you research a bit farther into what the early 109 F2 was loaded with? The Hs129 had these using AP rounds with karbid core.

[Karnak]

The MG151\15 had everything from solid ball rounds, AP with Karbid core, to HE with fuse. So can you research a bit farther into what the early 109 F2 was loaded with? The Hs129 had these using AP rounds with karbid core.

I'd bet HE.  That makes the most sense against aircraft.  The Brits even tried to load the .303s with HE, to some mild success.

[bustr]

Didn't JG 11 in FW190 A5 use R1 twin MG151/15 under wing packs for awhile in 1943? That would be an interesting bomber destroyer over towns, and a heck of a snap shot window to fly through on the deck. If you like those kinds of lufty thingies.

[Oldman731]

I've always...Wanted to fly the 109F-2 with the MG-151/15.

Agreed.

Someone here probably knows how many 109Fs were made with the 15mm, and how many with the 20mm?

- oldman

[Denniss]

Both Hs 129B and Fw 190A with the dual gunpod used the 2cm version.
The 2cm KwK of the Panzer II and armored cars had some Tungsten core AP rounds but I have never heard of this in the MG 151. The MK 101/103 and BK 3,7 had Tungsten core rounds for use in Hs 129B and Ju 87G.

1233 Bf 109 F-2 were built, some of them may still have used the older MG FF/M and some may have already used the MG 151/20. Some F-4 may have been built with the 15mm version.

[SmokinLoon]

I'd bet HE.  That makes the most sense against aircraft.  The Brits even tried to load the .303s with HE, to some mild success.

To add further on to that, in many cases the "warheads" didn't necessarily have an explosive in them as much as that the projectile was designed to fragment upon impact with a medium.  Granted, I've not read much on the frangible projectiles of the British .303 or even the German 15mm but it wouldn't surprise me that there was an absence of explosives in them.

[Karnak]

The de Wilde .303 ammo actually had explosives in it.

[pangea]

+1 on the 109 F-2.  I have been wanting this one added as well.  The engine on the 109 F-2 had a little less horsepower than the F-4 engine which would also need to be factored in.  Other than the cannon and engine differences the F-2 and F-4 are the same.

[Les Paul]

A report on German MG-151 15-mm and 20-mm aircraft machine guns, from Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 30, July 29, 1943.

a. MG 151/15

Additional information about the 15-mm weapon indicates that it is of Mauser design, manufactured by Rhein Metall, well constructed, and with excellent performance. As noted in the previous description, this gun (as well as the 20-mm) is cocked and fired electrically; the cocking mechanism consists of two sprockets and a roller chain driven through a train of gears by a small high-speed motor. Subsidiary hand cocking is done by a chain ending in the cross-bar at the rear end of the breech cover.

There is no applied safety device as electrical safety only is provided. Provisions are for automatic firing only. The firing is by electrical solenoid operating a sear release. The gun is recoil operated unassisted by muzzle blast. The system of feed is by disintegrating metal link belt.

There is a resilient front mounting comprising a cylinder sliding in an outer housing and acted upon by four double-acting buffer springs and 2 buffer brakes. The sliding cylinder has 2 hooks which engage with lugs on the gun casing to lock the gun and mounting together. The rear of the gun is supported by 2 annular bushings mounted in a bracket and sliding on 2 cylindrical rails attached to the aircraft structure.

b. MG 151/15 and 151/20 Compared

Sometimes it is erroneously supposed that the MG 151/15 and the MG 151/20 are the same gun fitted with interchangeable barrels. Though of basically identical design and similar appearance, they are separate and distinct weapons.

The MG 151/15 was first encountered, installed in the Heinkel 115. German aircraft now mounted with the MG 151/15 as standard armament are the following: JU-88 (night fighter), DO-217, HS-129. In all cases the fixed gun is mounted in the nose. Each of the following flying boats carries one or more of these guns in hydraulically-operated power turrets; BR-138-B, BV-138-C, DO-18-D, DO-18-G.

Construction details of the 151/15 are listed below.

Caliber Nominal	15 mm (0.591 in)	Length (overall)	75 1/2 in
Bore		Barrel
No. of grooves	8	Weight	23 lb 14 oz
Pitch	1 turn in 16in	Length (Overall)	49 1/4 in
Direction	Right Handed	Rate of fire;
Weight Including Electronic Control Device	84 lbs 1 oz	AP	740RPM
		HE	640RPM

Some of the differences between the 15-mm and 20-mm caliber 151 type of machine gun are shown in the following summary.

[th][/th]    [th]MG151/15[/th]    [th]MG151/20[/th]
Lenth (Barrel)	49 1/4 in	43 1/2 in
Weight (Barrel)	23 lb 14 oz	22 lb 14 oz
Pitch (Rifling)	1 turn in 16in	1 turn in 23 in
Groove (Width)	.157 in	.210 in
Groove (Depth)	.009 in	.0105 in
Length (Overall)	75 1/2 in	69 5/8 in
Weight (Overall)	84 lbs 1 oz	93 1/2 lb

In addition, the 20-mm has a shorter chamber and a slightly larger diameter at front end; the body is strengthened on the underside; the housing buffer is different in design internally, and slightly longer. Also, the feed block, the cartridge stop, the electrical layout for cocking, and the bullet guide in front of the feed pawl vary in the two weapons.




 *I believe the two guns they are comparing are the Electronic Controlled Variations of the MG151, I understand that the Percussive Version is the one mounted in the 109F series, but I can't seem to find reliable info on the exact distinctions between the two. (I will post if I find some info out, but only if it is anything significant.)

[Stampf]

Didn't JG 11 in FW190 A5 use R1 twin MG151/15 under wing packs for awhile in 1943? That would be an interesting bomber destroyer over towns, and a heck of a snap shot window to fly through on the deck. If you like those kinds of lufty thingies.

Yes they did.

[Les Paul]

I found information about the munitions used for the MG-151/15!

15x96mm Ammunition for the MG-151/15.


Panzergranatpatrone, L-spur.



Armor piercing steel shot, with tracer, projectile weight 72 grams initial speed 850 m/s. The tracer element endure at least 1100 meters.

Penetration table for Pzg.Ptr. L-spur. 25 mm at 100 meters and 13 mm at 600 meters, both in vertical (90º) plate and direct mode



Brandsprenggranatpatrone



Incendiary-explosive. 57,5 grams bullet, muzzle velocity 960 m/s

Brandsprenggranate L-spur Mit Zerl.



Same as above but with an tracer and self destruction element in the bullet base. Green band.

Hartkern-Panzergranate ohne-zerl.



This is a pretty unusual variant. It consist in a miniaturized hard core Panzergranate 40 as used in the Panzers. Bullet weight 53,5 grams, it had an 9,5mm diameter tungsten-carbide core with a aluminium-magnesium envelope. It was propelled by 24,5 grams of gunpowder an it can reach 1000 m/s.

Penetration table of the Hartkern 15 mm bullet, 48mm at 100 meters in a 160 kg/square mm steel (which is equivalent to a SAE 4340 alloy)



As far as typical munition belts went in the MG151/15

4 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl
1 Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl

OR

1 Panzergranatpatrone L'spur o. Zerl
2 Brandsprenggranatpatronen L'spur m. Zerl

For ground attack missions Hartkernmunition, AP with a tungsten core, was loaded.