Gunnery doh!

[RotBaron]

Bested by a better pilot or just due to my mistake(s) I can handle that...The most frustrating thing for me is to a let a bandit slip away because of my poor shooting abilities.

I've started reading Robert Shaw's book, and I thought I'd get to the ACM right away. However, of course that wouldn't be prudent so I've waded into the first chapter and find although it's complex, it's very relevant to why I choose to carry gondola's. I'd prefer to get to a point where I'm not hindering the 109's performance with them.

Bustr had some good points about warming up offline first and other things. Good advice...

To my question, what site do you use and why? Does it make sense to you or you just go off feel?

Shaw writes about LCOS and plane radar for the pipper, to which I was told tonite our's is an inertia based site/pipper. I thought Shaw said some planes in WW2 had the in plane radar based LCOS, did I misread?

Looking through our available sites, some have markings on them circles, bars, lines, etc. to demark distance and lead. How did you figure out how to use these?

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to install the same site in every plane I fly, do you do this or switch for certain planes/gun platforms?

 

[Vudu15]

Shaw's info is good in some respects, but IMO its next to useless and too technical for this game. His tactics can be adopted and his basics are great to learn but you still have to do the most important thing...learn. You can read every book in the known universe on a given subject and still not know how to do it. Read his book but practice is what will make you better I'd suggest the TA get a trainer or a more experienced player that happen to be in there and try your moves and you can then receive correctional training or advice on the spot. Another thing folks will do is place rules on them selves I always hear shooting from an "unloaded" position which is good advice and is great when in the boom and zoom or setting up nice crossing shots, but is downright difficult in a turn fight. Now if you can slip on a guy sure check your turn slip then let him have it, but if you're in the fight your just going to have to wing it most of the time. As far as books I always thought any of the older books written by or about pilots from that era would always give you more in sight to techniques and tactics and are much more entertaining than some of the dreary tombs over ACM.

Now as with any other pilot and any other book or reference its written from the knowledge and style of the person you talk to and all are different so take what you like from what I said adapt other parts and completely toss others find your style and make it yours. I fly a certain way others have methods that may contradict on some or all levels you will be the one to decide what works for you and your a/c and what doesn't. Best of luck and questions if you have lemme know.

P.S. But do you really want to know where I learned my stuff?......I taught myself. I got shot down a lot and I learned from what I saw. I read Shaw's book a year ago. and that's the one and only book or article covering ACM I've ever read. So knowing what you know already you should be well ahead of the curve and be striking more hits very soon.

On sites I change on every plane you need to learn the lead each a/c needs to achieve strikes the biggest thing could be choosing just one a/c just because it has the same site doesn't mean the rounds will strike the same place with in that site at different given ranges. But agian my 2 cents and every pilot is different and has a different idea so use what you see here and develop your own style. 

[FLS]

I generally use the same sight, US MK9. I don't think it's necessary but it can't hurt. All you need is a dot and a circle. Some good shots just use a dot. I like a dot and 2 circles. As Bustr has explained in detail elsewhere, the circles can be used for setting the proper lead. You need to be aware of your angle off tail, the angle of your flight path relative to your target's flight path, in order to use the rings accurately.

When people say they shoot by feel it means they learned the correct sight picture from experience. Because there are so many variables in shooting a moving target with a moving gun it's best to educate yourself with theory and gunnery practice so that you can also eventually shoot by feel.  The training arena and the lead computing training aid, the green crosses you put your sight on, are your quickest education in proper sight picture.

Some WW2 aircraft did have lead computing gun sights but we don't have that in AH.

Part of good shooting is setting up the shot and waiting for a good shot before firing. Also, with wing mounted guns try to shoot at your convergence distance.

It's hard to learn ACM from a book but it's a good place to get clear on the theory. ACM simply consists of turning, slowing down, and accelerating, with regard to the bandit's position and lack of interest in following your game plan. You need to understand turn performance, turn circles, and pursuit curves. Your target may understand them too so then it's a contest to maximize performance. You learn basic ACM best when flying against the same performing aircraft. Once you know the fundamentals you can use them against aircraft with different performance.  A trainer or training partner can help you put into practice what you're reading. Film with trails turned on is a great tool for understanding turn circles, pursuit curves, and the effect of speed on turn performance.

[BluBerry]

To my question, what site do you use and why? Does it make sense to you or you just go off feel?

I will PM you the gun sight I use. I go off of feel when shooting. Have never checked out the lead computing sight, but shooting is a practice, practice, practice thing and at least the DA will let you shoot at enemies faster then the MA.

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to install the same site in every plane I fly, do you do this or switch for certain planes/gun platforms?

Go to your sights folder and change the name of the one you like to "default". It will now be the default for every plane in the game.

[Hap]

Looking through our available sites, some have markings on them circles, bars, lines, etc. to demark distance and lead. How did you figure out how to use these?

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to install the same site in every plane I fly, do you do this or switch for certain planes/gun platforms?

 

All my planes use the US Mark 9.  Perfect jabo site: put your target at 6:00 between the 2 circles.  It's almost can't miss.

As far "demarcating distance and lead," experience and practice.  If your hit percentage is .08 or above, you are heading well in the right direction.  Some guys I've seen are .12 which is exceptional in my book.

Oh wow.  Just checked my scores from last month.  I finished with a 12.32 Kill Hit Percentage.  My surprises me because I don't like dog fighting anymore.  I suspect the overwhelming number of planes I shot down are buffs.  I'm just not into the "Ah ha!  I shot you down.  I'm the better pilot" thing.

Rot, one last point.  I don't know if this works with canon rides or not.  I rarely fly them.  But one thing I have discovered with 50 cals, if you get the first good honest bite out of someone, you can remove yourself from the fight, if it be a busy place, and be pretty much assured of getting the kill.

Give it a try in your 109 and see what happens.  You know, a real good canon burst, then fly away and set yourself up for more hunting.  That way, you'll avoid the devolving "lower and slower" walk to a miserable end back into the tower.  Let me know if you get some success.  Maybe it's an idiosyncrasy with 50 cals and 109's will not get the same results.

Good Luck!

[wpeters]

My hit went way up once I scaled my stick the proper way.  Look at the picture in Max's first post.  Do your x and y axis off of that and you will be amazed at how that helps

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360127.0.html

[Lusche]

Oh wow.  Just checked my scores from last month.  I finished with a 12.32 Kill Hit Percentage.  My surprises me because I don't like dog fighting anymore.  I suspect the overwhelming number of planes I shot down are buffs.  I'm just not into the "Ah ha!  I shot you down.  I'm the better pilot" thing.

Bomber kills make a solid appearance on your kill table, but are not even the majority of your kills at all. A quick glance shows 43 bomber / attacker kills and 67 kills of fighters.


But now back to topic.

My own credo is: Use the force! 

Seriously.

We often can find a tendency of overthink gunnery or making it too complicated. Of course, a sound knowledge about how gunnery works does help a lot, but that has it's place before taking off and afterwards, when you review your gun camera films.
But in combat, it's all about combat reflexes and making subconscious, split second decisions. The more you clog up your gunsight and the more you have to think about what you are doing, the more trouble you might have actually hitting something.

It's all about getting that mental sight picture hardwired in your brain. For myself, I have my eyes and my focus on the enemy, using only that little dot in my gunsight as a reference (but not really keeping that much attention to it.). To achieve such a "zen state of gunnery" you need loads of practice and the ability to 'relax'. You need to get a feel for it.

But of course: Your mileage may vary

[Randy1]

I did a google on US Mark 9 gun sight in the images.  There is a great picture there of an operating Mark 9 showing the gun sight image focused on the glass.  The language is foreign to me for the  gun sight. 

[Wiley]

My own credo is: Use the force! 

Seriously.

We often can find a tendency of overthink gunnery or making it too complicated. Of course, a sound knowledge about how gunnery works does help a lot, but that has it's place before taking off and afterwards, when you review your gun camera films.
But in combat, it's all about combat reflexes and making subconscious, split second decisions. The more you clog up your gunsight and the more you have to think about what you are doing, the more trouble you might have actually hitting something.

It's all about getting that mental sight picture hardwired in your brain. For myself, I have my eyes and my focus on the enemy, using only that little dot in my gunsight as a reference (but not really keeping that much attention to it.). To achieve such a "zen state of gunnery" you need loads of practice and the ability to 'relax'. You need to get a feel for it.

But of course: Your mileage may vary

Everybody's different, particularly when it comes to gunnery.  For the longest time, I flew with a simple dot for a sight.  Still do on some planes.  It works ok, particularly on short range.  I find I don't even think about the circle when it's a hard scissoring crossing shot, I just revert to put the pipper where he's about to fly through and rely on my brain to come up with the appropriate timing.

I did, however, start using some of Bustr's historical sights a few months ago.  Partly to give me more of a golly gee historical feeling, partly to see how they work.

Over time, I've really found them to be useful particularly with the .50 armed planes.  Where I really like them is at somewhat longer ranges when lead becomes longer but the bandit isn't maneuvering that hard, like 400-600.  They don't add much for me for straight crossing shots, and also for near dead six shots, but for quartering shots I find they give me a reference point I don't have with the dot to refine my aim.  I particularly like the ones for the 47D-11 and the F4U-1D.

I grew up learning to shoot off the front sight, so my eye tends to focus on the pipper moreso than the plane when it comes to gunnery.  Seems to work ok, I'm 10% last month, though I was finding quite a few buffs.

Wiley.

[Ack-Ack]

Bested by a better pilot or just due to my mistake(s) I can handle that...The most frustrating thing for me is to a let a bandit slip away because of my poor shooting abilities.

I've started reading Robert Shaw's book, and I thought I'd get to the ACM right away. However, of course that wouldn't be prudent so I've waded into the first chapter and find although it's complex, it's very relevant to why I choose to carry gondola's. I'd prefer to get to a point where I'm not hindering the 109's performance with them.

Bustr had some good points about warming up offline first and other things. Good advice...

To my question, what site do you use and why? Does it make sense to you or you just go off feel?

Shaw writes about LCOS and plane radar for the pipper, to which I was told tonite our's is an inertia based site/pipper. I thought Shaw said some planes in WW2 had the in plane radar based LCOS, did I misread?

Looking through our available sites, some have markings on them circles, bars, lines, etc. to demark distance and lead. How did you figure out how to use these?

I'm thinking it would be a good idea to install the same site in every plane I fly, do you do this or switch for certain planes/gun platforms?

 

This might help you more than Shaw's book. 

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html


ack-ack

[Naughty]

     BEST ADVICE FOR GUNNERY...

         Go to the TA,  hit "ctrl tab"  then find Morefeind and ask to engage him.  get him in you field of view then hit "tab".   not only will it show you where you should be aiming, but Morfeind will provide you with a slippery target and all kinda crazy angles to aim for. and then tell you what your doing wrong.  my hit and kill percentage nearly quadrupled after just 30 minutes of chasing him around the TA. you quickly develop a feel for where you should be aiming.

[Randy1]

Use the force Luke.

[RotBaron]

Thank you all gentlemen for your responses.

A lot of great information there to digest. Much appreciated.
 

I've hunted birds and done a lot of clay target shooting over the years, about 30yrs, I think I could translate my feeling for lead on birds to the game, but one area where it gets complicated, when you are pulling hard for a lot of lead, the cowling eclipses sight of the bandit. That is never the case with birds. Sometimes I hit the bandit and sometimes he has changed course/or I just didn't lead correctly. This is another area of feel that is probably learned over so.

[Zoney]

Shooting birds while stationary surely gives you some idea of timing but for Aces High you must also calculate how fast you are going greatly increasing the difficulty.  For me, after so many years playing I hardly think about it, it's more of a reflex now.  If I find I'm not hitting as well as I should then I lead more and I'm back in the sweet spot again.

I find TA time invaluable to keep those gunnery skills sharp.

Edit:  Crap, you are talking about GV gunnery.  I suppose you aren't moving then, My bad, disregard.

[Wiley]

Thank you all gentlemen for your responses.

A lot of great information there to digest. Much appreciated.
 

I've hunted birds and done a lot of clay target shooting over the years, about 30yrs, I think I could translate my feeling for lead on birds to the game, but one area where it gets complicated, when you are pulling hard for a lot of lead, the cowling eclipses sight of the bandit. That is never the case with birds. Sometimes I hit the bandit and sometimes he has changed course/or I just didn't lead correctly. This is another area of feel that is probably learned over so.

One other tidbit I figured I'd mention based on this paragraph.  Are you aware your bullets hit significantly low when you're pulling G's?  Also, the harder you pull, the lower your bullets will go from your sight?  At 4 or more G's, your bullets are actually headed out somewhere below your cowling.  That's why most people try to shoot when their plane is unloaded, which means your stick is neutral and you're not pulling G's.  Just another thing to take into account.

Wiley.