Author Topic: please enlighten me on my failures in this one  (Read 913 times)

Offline caldera

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please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« on: June 09, 2014, 05:44:37 PM »
I think the turning point at the end was when I reversed into him and was about out of energy around the 10:20 mark.  He was kind of flopping up high and if I kept going straight away from him, could have extended the fight. 

Looking for tips on energy management if possible.  So many times he was just out of reach.  The first merge is around 5:00 in the film.  I would have edited it down but that removes engine sounds.
"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline BnZs

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 05:56:03 PM »
I think the turning point at the end was when I reversed into him and was about out of energy around the 10:20 mark.  He was kind of flopping up high and if I kept going straight away from him, could have extended the fight. 

Looking for tips on energy management if possible.  So many times he was just out of reach.  The first merge is around 5:00 in the film.  I would have edited it down but that removes engine sounds.

I haven't watched the film but I'd say your primary problem is becoming so skilled and bored that you're upping 110Cs  :D
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Muzzy

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 05:59:51 PM »
Well, upon initial review, I would say that you blew a great deal of energy just trying to come around on him at the initial merge. You turned rather sharply, and by the time you were nose on, he had an energy advantage in terms of speed. After that, you were engaged in a turning fight (I count vertical loops as turning) with a spit, which I'm pretty sure a 110 will lose sooner or later.

If it were me, I would not have chosen to merge the way you did. I would have tried to climb out a bit more, maybe a climbing turn to see what he's doing, or even extend out and wait for a better opportunity to dive on him.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline caldera

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2014, 04:26:56 PM »
Well, upon initial review, I would say that you blew a great deal of energy just trying to come around on him at the initial merge. You turned rather sharply, and by the time you were nose on, he had an energy advantage in terms of speed. After that, you were engaged in a turning fight (I count vertical loops as turning) with a spit, which I'm pretty sure a 110 will lose sooner or later.

If it were me, I would not have chosen to merge the way you did. I would have tried to climb out a bit more, maybe a climbing turn to see what he's doing, or even extend out and wait for a better opportunity to dive on him.

Thank you for the advice but perhaps I should clarify.  I don't want boom and zoom pointers.  I wanted a turn fight but need to know if there was some way to keep energy a little better while doing so.
"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline Muzzy

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2014, 10:21:53 PM »
Anticipate making wider turns than a spitty, especially if you are in a 110. Try to make your movements as smooth as possible. The harder the turn, the more energy you bleed.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline SPKmes

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2014, 10:46:17 PM »
That was  well done...If there was anything I think you were constantly faster than him but seemed to be flatter in the roll which pushed you in front so you would cut it short and drop in on him ...perhaps a little more height added to the roll would help keep you behind and keep the speed to follow up more (follow the tail not the canopy.... the final climb you held for a bit long....causing you to lose your advantage....from there you gained the speed back but the spit had too much room to start a luftberry.... if it wasn't for that and the missed shots, from my mind, you owned that fight.... I always feel they know that they have nothing left to offer and are scared hahaha... But you can't be the owner when you die I spose.

watching that I kept going..hmm i do that...yep I do that...ahhh now i see what i should do there.... cheers snuggie...helped me heaps  hahahah

That's from my look...but I have always considered you a better Virtual pilot than me so I'm not sure that I am seeing it correctly
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 10:51:50 PM by SPKmes »

Offline Latrobe

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2014, 11:43:06 PM »
In terms of energy management you could have save a lot of speed even before the merge. From 4 mins until the merge at 5 mins you were making somewhat tight turns back and forth (I think to keep an eye on the spit while trying to drag him out away from the base?) These turns are bleeding your speed off even before you've engaged the spit. Each time you turn you stopped gaining speed or even lost a little. If you wanted to drag the spit away from the base while keeping an eye on him then you should have done 1 very shallow turn, either left or right, and keep him in you 5 or 7 oclock position. This way you can keep an eye on him, drag him away from base, and you continue to gain speed in a very shallow turn.

A few times I think you could have made slightly more separation from the spit as he came in for a shot. 8:14 and 8:46 are two good examples. You did avoid the shot but it was just barely. At 8:14 I would have rolled right as soon as I saw him rolling left to drop in on me and fly to his 6. This would have denied him any shot at all rather than giving him a possible, but rather difficult, shot. Same thing happens at 8:46 as well. Spit rolls left for a shot, I would have rolled a little more right and flown to his 6.

A couple times it looks like you're trying too hard to get a shot on him. You're making a turn into him with pure or lead pursuit to try and line up a shot when you should be flying to his 6 with lag pursuit to gain a better position. Some examples of this are:

6:41 - I'm not too familiar with how the 110C handles at low speeds, but if you could have stayed vertical just a second longer here then you would have save just a tiny bit more altitude and drop down into a better position on the spits 6.

7:27-7:35 - A little questionable on the placement of your lift vector. Flying to his 6 with lag pursuit would have gained you a better position more towards his 6. Still, nothing bad about what you did here as you do gain the spits 6 in the very next move.

8:00-8:06 - Again, you get a little to eager to line up a shot and turn in too soon. Turning in too soon without being in a good position for the shot means you don't get one. This also puts you in a bad position where the spit rolls over and gets a shot opportunity on you. Had you been a little more patient and flown for his 6 by staying vertical just a little longer then you would have gained better positioning and the spit wouldn't have gotten that shot opportunity.

8:34 - A little too eager to get the shot again, and the exact same situation as 8:00 happens again.

9:30-9:50 - The start of this was very well flown by you. Nice use of flaps to help get behind the spit and keeping enough speed to still maneuver. It's the second half (9:45) where things go a little south. In that situation what I would have done is keep some or all my flaps out and pull straight up into the vertical to get above the spit. As the spit passes below me then I use my rudder and swing my nose right and into him. My rudder and gravity will wing me over and give me a snapshot on him. I do this all the time in planes with decent rudders. Not sure how good the 110C's rudder is so I'm not 100% sure this move would work but it's just what I would have done. What you did, roll into the spit, wasn't really a bad move as you did gain his 6 after you rolled out of it and the spit could not roll over the top for a shot like he did twice before, but now the Spit has gained the altitude advantage and you do stall out trying to climb to him in the next move.

10:50 - I would have dropped lower through the "egg" and gotten right on the deck (I would have gone lower but there is the ground that's in the way  :D ). This would have created slightly more angles to work with and slightly better positioning to avoid the shot.

Overall you fought very well for being in a plane that was completely outclassed by a Spit8. The few missed shots at the start really did you in as the very few mistakes you made added up and the spit finally started to use his superior climb rate to work you out of speed and altitude.

Offline SPKmes

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:04:27 AM »
^^^^^   And that is why Latrobe hands me my but every time  hahaha....   nice write up man

Offline caldera

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 04:34:25 PM »
That was  well done...If there was anything I think you were constantly faster than him but seemed to be flatter in the roll which pushed you in front so you would cut it short and drop in on him ...perhaps a little more height added to the roll would help keep you behind and keep the speed to follow up more (follow the tail not the canopy.... the final climb you held for a bit long....causing you to lose your advantage....from there you gained the speed back but the spit had too much room to start a luftberry.... if it wasn't for that and the missed shots, from my mind, you owned that fight.... I always feel they know that they have nothing left to offer and are scared hahaha... But you can't be the owner when you die I spose.

watching that I kept going..hmm i do that...yep I do that...ahhh now i see what i should do there.... cheers snuggie...helped me heaps  hahahah

That's from my look...but I have always considered you a better Virtual pilot than me so I'm not sure that I am seeing it correctly

If you do the same things I do, how come you kill me every time?   :cry 
Thank you for that analysis, sir.  I see your points and will try to take heed.   :salute


In terms of energy management you could have save a lot of speed even before the merge. From 4 mins until the merge at 5 mins you were making somewhat tight turns back and forth (I think to keep an eye on the spit while trying to drag him out away from the base?) These turns are bleeding your speed off even before you've engaged the spit. Each time you turn you stopped gaining speed or even lost a little. If you wanted to drag the spit away from the base while keeping an eye on him then you should have done 1 very shallow turn, either left or right, and keep him in you 5 or 7 oclock position. This way you can keep an eye on him, drag him away from base, and you continue to gain speed in a very shallow turn.

A few times I think you could have made slightly more separation from the spit as he came in for a shot. 8:14 and 8:46 are two good examples. You did avoid the shot but it was just barely. At 8:14 I would have rolled right as soon as I saw him rolling left to drop in on me and fly to his 6. This would have denied him any shot at all rather than giving him a possible, but rather difficult, shot. Same thing happens at 8:46 as well. Spit rolls left for a shot, I would have rolled a little more right and flown to his 6.

A couple times it looks like you're trying too hard to get a shot on him. You're making a turn into him with pure or lead pursuit to try and line up a shot when you should be flying to his 6 with lag pursuit to gain a better position. Some examples of this are:

6:41 - I'm not too familiar with how the 110C handles at low speeds, but if you could have stayed vertical just a second longer here then you would have save just a tiny bit more altitude and drop down into a better position on the spits 6.

7:27-7:35 - A little questionable on the placement of your lift vector. Flying to his 6 with lag pursuit would have gained you a better position more towards his 6. Still, nothing bad about what you did here as you do gain the spits 6 in the very next move.

8:00-8:06 - Again, you get a little to eager to line up a shot and turn in too soon. Turning in too soon without being in a good position for the shot means you don't get one. This also puts you in a bad position where the spit rolls over and gets a shot opportunity on you. Had you been a little more patient and flown for his 6 by staying vertical just a little longer then you would have gained better positioning and the spit wouldn't have gotten that shot opportunity.

8:34 - A little too eager to get the shot again, and the exact same situation as 8:00 happens again.

9:30-9:50 - The start of this was very well flown by you. Nice use of flaps to help get behind the spit and keeping enough speed to still maneuver. It's the second half (9:45) where things go a little south. In that situation what I would have done is keep some or all my flaps out and pull straight up into the vertical to get above the spit. As the spit passes below me then I use my rudder and swing my nose right and into him. My rudder and gravity will wing me over and give me a snapshot on him. I do this all the time in planes with decent rudders. Not sure how good the 110C's rudder is so I'm not 100% sure this move would work but it's just what I would have done. What you did, roll into the spit, wasn't really a bad move as you did gain his 6 after you rolled out of it and the spit could not roll over the top for a shot like he did twice before, but now the Spit has gained the altitude advantage and you do stall out trying to climb to him in the next move.

10:50 - I would have dropped lower through the "egg" and gotten right on the deck (I would have gone lower but there is the ground that's in the way  :D ). This would have created slightly more angles to work with and slightly better positioning to avoid the shot.

Overall you fought very well for being in a plane that was completely outclassed by a Spit8. The few missed shots at the start really did you in as the very few mistakes you made added up and the spit finally started to use his superior climb rate to work you out of speed and altitude.


Yeah, I did want to drag him away from the field but had no interest in keeping an initial energy advantage.  The proverbial "fair fights" are rare and this was a chance to have one.
After watching again, I can see your points about lead pursuit and trying too hard.  At the time, I felt he was within reach but was always just out of it.
I will try to hold the vertical a little longer but things can get mushy if pushed too far I use the stall limiter - don't hit me!
 
A most excellent breakdown, sir!  That must have taken some time, thank you.  :salute


^^^^^   And that is why Latrobe hands me my but every time  hahaha....   nice write up man

Tell me about it.  Every encounter plays out the same: "hey, let me shoot at this guy"...merge...tower - "what just happened?!"  :headscratch:
"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline Volron

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 04:48:08 PM »
I see one of Latrobe's Dogfight video thingies here.  Hey caldera, why not let him make a video of it? :aok
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Offline ink

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 10:44:10 PM »
If you do the same things I do, how come you kill me every time?   :cry 
Thank you for that analysis, sir.  I see your points and will try to take heed.   :salute

 

Yeah, I did want to drag him away from the field but had no interest in keeping an initial energy advantage.  The proverbial "fair fights" are rare and this was a chance to have one.
......

2 comments.....

1 it could NEVER have been a "fair" fight...spit vs 110
2 shut off stall limiter.

Latrobe did a great analysis :aok

Offline Latrobe

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Re: please enlighten me on my failures in this one
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2014, 12:43:29 AM »
I agree with ink. Your job is to make the fight as unfair for your opponent as possible. Let them have a little fun fighting from the disadvantage.  :D

And stall limiter goes off! Seriously. It looks like you have good control over your plane, no need to have stall limiter on anymore. Learn to push your planes performance to its peak performance and you'll be killing spit16s in a 110C with frightening frequency!  :devil