Looking at Kill Stats for last tour

[Debrody]

The pony is easy to fly but hard to fly well, especially since it has no tricks in the bag like the 109s/190s.
The spit... well you can enter a 3v1, do literally everything wrong and still come out as a winner... thats the spit16.

[Zodiac]

I've always found the K4 easier to fly and fight in than the P-51, and have always had a better K/D ratio in the K4.  The P-51 doesn't have the acceleration, rate of climb, or the drop dead firepower that the K4 has, so I think ease of use depends on the pilot.  I would put a newb in a K4 before a Pony if choosing between the two.

A 109 has a very busy cockpit especially the K4, unless of course your just buzzing around at full throttle and not turning very often. Personally when I am up in a K4 once I engage a con I am making constant changes to either flaps, trim, or throttle.

[ink]

I've always found the K4 easier to fly and fight in than the P-51, and have always had a better K/D ratio in the K4.  The P-51 doesn't have the acceleration, rate of climb, or the drop dead firepower that the K4 has, so I think ease of use depends on the pilot.  I would put a newb in a K4 before a Pony if choosing between the two.

that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....

while the 51 would most definitely.

most likely the K4 noob is gonna Auger....and will take many many sorties to get to know the 30mm....

overcome the Giant canopy bars...

the insane torq is a PITA to a noob

while the 51 noob hits 550 plus and still has control....
 out climbs everything at that speed....

has plenty of ammo and if he has even a minor bit of Aim he will land hits.



now take vets.... vets that actually fight....yes the K4 is the more dangerous plane.

[BnZs]

that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....
while the 51 noob hits 550 plus and still has control....
 out climbs everything at that speed....

Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.

[BnZs]

I've flown them both in the past. The gun packages on the Pony and Kurt have exactly the opposite strengths and weaknesses. The Pony is good for getting some hits at long range and high deflections, yet you may often find yourself landing hits to little effect, especially on short range crossing snapshots or shooting with a very high closure rate. The tater gun will never serve as a sniper weapon, yet if one learns to follow the "damn near ram" philosophy of shooting, it is satisfying overkill that won't let yo down at close range. (The La7 gun package seems to basically split the difference)

Neither is a good noob's plane, the P-51D simply doesn't have any attributes, especially turning ability, that will compensate for offensive/defensive mistakes except the ability dive away. Not very inspiring. The K4 can do much more (including running even faster) but the tater gun is simply a handicap for noobs.

[bozon]

Neither is a good noob's plane, the P-51D simply doesn't have any attributes, especially turning ability, that will compensate for offensive/defensive mistakes except the ability dive away. Not very inspiring. The K4 can do much more (including running even faster) but the tater gun is simply a handicap for noobs.

There is a stage in a noobs development that both planes can fit. This is usually the second stage after "just getting the basic flying" nailed down (Spits, Zekes, etc for that part). At this point the noob wants to be able to see combat but survive. If he actually kills something is just a bonus. At this stage players tend to be attracted to fast planes with decent visibility that allow them to disengage and run away from a fight they are about to lose (i.e. any fight with an enemy that sees them coming, plane matchup irrelevant). Flying a turny plane will allow them to survive the "oh-@$#%" moments a bit longer, but no turning ability will save a noob.

The P-51 gives them the speed and the dive ability to run away. It is also a decent JABO which gives them some sense of being useful even though they can't really fight yet. The 109K will allow them to come higher than anyone else in visibility range and offer great acceleration for escaping, but will have a problem with diving escapes. The visibility is also not as good as in the pony and the tater is a clear vice for them (low ammo, low accuracy, difficult aim) - with the 0.5s they can get assists and the occasional kill even if another greenie finish it for them. It is this ability to run away that can give them the confidence to try and engage with some hope of surviving. A slow turny plane meas total commitment once engaged, and so makes them more timid in approaching/choosing the fights. La7 of course can fill the same need with even more escapability, but other vices.

[Kodiak]

that noob in a K4 would never get a kill.....

while the 51 would most definitely.

I still think it depends on the noob.  I went back to make sure my memory was still working and in my 4th month in AH my noob numbers were:

Pony: Kills 7 Deaths 34

K4: Kills 11 Deaths 11

the next month I stopped flying the Pony and went 24/29 in the K4.

I found the Pony hugely more difficult than the K4 as a noob.  All it takes is one or two taters from a K4 for a kill.  With the Pony I got a million assists.

[Kodiak]

There is a stage in a noobs development that both planes can fit. This is usually the second stage after "just getting the basic flying" nailed down (Spits, Zekes, etc for that part). At this point the noob wants to be able to see combat but survive. If he actually kills something is just a bonus. At this stage players tend to be attracted to fast planes with decent visibility that allow them to disengage and run away from a fight they are about to lose (i.e. any fight with an enemy that sees them coming, plane matchup irrelevant). Flying a turny plane will allow them to survive the "oh-@$#%" moments a bit longer, but no turning ability will save a noob.

The P-51 gives them the speed and the dive ability to run away. It is also a decent JABO which gives them some sense of being useful even though they can't really fight yet. The 109K will allow them to come higher than anyone else in visibility range and offer great acceleration for escaping, but will have a problem with diving escapes. The visibility is also not as good as in the pony and the tater is a clear vice for them (low ammo, low accuracy, difficult aim) - with the 0.5s they can get assists and the occasional kill even if another greenie finish it for them. It is this ability to run away that can give them the confidence to try and engage with some hope of surviving. A slow turny plane meas total commitment once engaged, and so makes them more timid in approaching/choosing the fights. La7 of course can fill the same need with even more escapability, but other vices.

This is really well stated, Bozon.  But I found it much easier to fly up their tailpipe in a K4 and put a tater in them than the marksmanship that it took in the Pony which came much later (heck, I'm still working on that...lol).

[PJ_Godzilla]

Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.

My own claim here: engine off, props feathered, they will be damn close, especially if in a similar drag configuration w/r control surfaces. Why? Because they're basically just ballistic at this point and, given that the cd for the two contemporary birds of similar class and purpose is likely similar, the drag effects will offset.

Now, engine on, otoh, they're both "thrusting" ballistics - which is kind of like a jumbo shrimp. F=sigma(ma) will govern and T-D will be critical - and I'd suspect the Pony will be a little better but, at that speed, isn't freestream actually tending to overspeed the prop (and thus the spinning prop is just another drag contributor)?

[PJ_Godzilla]

This is really well stated, Bozon.  But I found it much easier to fly up their tailpipe in a K4 and put a tater in them than the marksmanship that it took in the Pony which came much later (heck, I'm still working on that...lol).

I augered every 109 I flew as a noob. I still do occasionally as an expereinced noob. Must remember the trim... Actually, nowadays, it's always because I want to cut it close. If you're screaming down at 525 and tracking a turning spit, it's entirely possible to overshoot your point of no return on the pullout. It's just embarassing, and I did it a lot. Even so, I always preferred the 109 to the Pony.

[BnZs]

My own claim here: engine off, props feathered, they will be damn close, especially if in a similar drag configuration w/r control surfaces. Why? Because they're basically just ballistic at this point and, given that the cd for the two contemporary birds of similar class and purpose is likely similar, the drag effects will offset.

Now, engine on, otoh, they're both "thrusting" ballistics - which is kind of like a jumbo shrimp. F=sigma(ma) will govern and T-D will be critical - and I'd suspect the Pony will be a little better but, at that speed, isn't freestream actually tending to overspeed the prop (and thus the spinning prop is just another drag contributor)?

I once did a zoom climb test on multiple AH planes for my own knowledge. The procedure was 1. Dive to sea level and above 400mph, full WEP. 2. Just as the speed bled down to 400, pull up at 4G until straight vertical, 3. Hold until the plane becomes uncontrollable. All the single engine aircraft I tested did basically the same, six thousand some odd feet in every case.The P-38 did a little better, getting over 7000, because it can hold nose up a little longer 'cause it doesn't fight torque.

[ink]

Would you mind showing your work (the physics) on that "outclimbs everything" at 550 bit? I personally think a Corsair or a Jug going 550mph would keep pace with a zooming Mustang doing that same speed just fine, and that this claim of yours needs to be filed in the same place as "The Pony out-turns everything at high speed". Which turned out to be physically impossible, what with the virtual pilots always subject to the same G-limit.

once again you show you do not actually read what you are reading.

or it could be I am just not good with words....

when you are doing 550 in a 51....you wont see any others doing that...more then likely you are the fastest around....and no other planes are gonna be able to climb with you....

obviously if you and another guy are doing the same speed they will...

but that is very rarely the case and not what I was talking about.

[ink]

I still think it depends on the noob.  I went back to make sure my memory was still working and in my 4th month in AH my noob numbers were:

Pony: Kills 7 Deaths 34

K4: Kills 11 Deaths 11

the next month I stopped flying the Pony and went 24/29 in the K4.

I found the Pony hugely more difficult than the K4 as a noob.  All it takes is one or two taters from a K4 for a kill.  With the Pony I got a million assists.

some people are better shots....and if you can land with the tater then ya the K4 is a monster....

most though it takes a long time to get used to that gun.(or some good training at the onset of your AH career)

the 51 is a far more stable plane for staying alive, and getting kills to the average guy.

[BnZs]

See Rule #4

[BnZs]

The pony is easy to fly but hard to fly well, especially since it has no tricks in the bag like the 109s/190s.
The spit... well you can enter a 3v1, do literally everything wrong and still come out as a winner... thats the spit16.

What are the 190s tricks in the bag that the Pony doesn't have? I've always thought the two planes were in basically the same boat for the most part.