Author Topic: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI  (Read 984 times)

Offline albs

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F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« on: June 07, 2014, 09:28:54 AM »
I was fighting a guy in the dueling arena who was using a spit xvi while I was using a F4u-4. I couldn't help but notice that short of starting with a 5K+ altitude advantage there seemed little I could do to stay out of his gunsights. Any ideas as to how to beat a spit xvi that is co-alt or higher. I tried diving away which gets me separation but only enough to be able to pull around and force a head-on. As well you lose alt/speed which each run, so it won't work forever.  I tried getting slow on the deck and using my flaps to out turn him at the edge of a stall but he would just climb away as I got around on him. Seems in this case the f4u-4 is just out-matched. Any one know of tactics that will allow me to get the upper hand rather than just stay alive or run away.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 09:50:04 AM »
The first thing is, I would recommend against a full-flaps flat-turning contest. Yes, the Corsairs all have a tighter turn radius at full flaps, however your turn rate is sufficiently lower than the Spit's that unless you can get the shot within the first circle or two, he's going to get around on you eventually.

Use high and low yo-yos instead, especially the low-yo, which you can use to build your turn rate while still cutting inside his corner if he tries to flat-turn against you. Use a fairly high-aspect yo. In the case of the high-yo if you're positioned properly you can just roll over the top of him, especially if you kick hard on the inside rudder (IMO good rudder management is even MORE important to the Corsair than the flaps). And if it leads to the rolling scissors, the Corsair can use that to great effect.

Otherwise, remember your main advantages in the -4 are raw power and speed. Even if the Spixteen has a starting altitude advantage, the -4 is fast enough and accelerates well enough you should be able to extend and reset the fight with only a shallow nose-low attitude. You can also use the standard energy saving/building tactics you would use against any higher opponent (my favorite is a shallow nose-low turn to build E and bait him into an attack, followed by a sharper break under him as he closes for a shot and then a quick zoom climb back up to grab a bit of altitude. Lather, rinse repeat until either you've neutralized E states, or you've gained position to roll over the top of him).

Oh, and don't worry about getting saddled up. Take whatever shot he presents, even if it's a quick crossing shot. Spits don't take damage particularly well, and even a brief snapshot can pop his wing off.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 09:55:53 AM by Saxman »
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Widewing

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 10:46:52 AM »
Having flown many duels with Urchin, F4U vs Spit16, there is a strategy that can work for the F4U-1, and works even better for the F4U-4...

On a Co-E, Co-Alt merge, the F4U can reverse faster than the Spit16. How? It can scrub E much faster, tightening up the reversing turn. If the Spit pilot doesn't anticipate it, the F4U can get guns on the Spit from a front quarter angle to a full 90 degree deflection. Don't miss.....

Don't use too much flap on the reverse, only enough to grab angles.

Unlike the -1 versions, the F4U-4 can give the Spit16 fits in the vertical. The Spit is not a great ride for low-speed pull-up and rudder around vertical fighting, where the F4U-4 is one of the best at that. If the Spit driver elects to stall fight, the F4U-4 is very dangerous. I'm going to disagree with Saxman here. If you can force a circle fight (lufberry), the Spit's better turn rate is offset by the F4U-4's combination of rate and radius. However, you had better be well practiced at flying the -4 to its limits and being able to stay there without bobbles. The Spit is much easier to fly, so you had better be able to extract everything the -4 has to offer.
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Offline bozon

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 11:16:17 AM »
No matter the plane matchup, you still need to outfly your opponent. This and that fine points about the plane performance can give a slight edge, but the plane will not win the fight for you.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline albs

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 12:53:18 PM »
Its been many years since I last played, but thankfully riding the stall horn without buffeting much has come back quickly. I was able to use the edge of a stall circle with full flaps on one spit I fought a few days ago , however I knew it would work because his plane was buffeting rather violently as I came around the circle on him. This guy last night though, was smooth as silk and didn't let me get more than 180 degrees on his tail without pulling up and out of the circle. As I found in one fight following him up is a big mistake as well. I would also note he seemed to hit with nearly every shot he would take, except in the last fight. I also assume a good thing to also do is get the spit to spray and miss a lot if you can . I know they don't have much ammo. In fact in the last fight with him , he ran out of ammo. However, I ran out of fuel.

Offline Saxman

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2014, 01:21:23 PM »
This guy last night though, was smooth as silk and didn't let me get more than 180 degrees on his tail without pulling up and out of the circle.

This is the main reason I try to avoid the lufberry in the F4Us when I can. Throwing yo-yos instead widens your turning radius, but 1) you're cutting across the circle in the vertical, which mitigates that, anyway, and 2) it gives you a bit more tactical flexibility if your opponent doesn't play ball. Being able to respond when he goes up is a great way to drag him into a rolling scissors, where the F4U will eat most opponents alive.

Quote
I also assume a good thing to also do is get the spit to spray and miss a lot if you can.

The danger is that Spits from the Mk.V forward have Hispanos, which have ballistics nearly a match for the Browning. Even one Hispano shell finding you can cripple you.

The key isn't to get him to actually take the shot, but to bait him into overcommitting attempting to GET that guns solution. The harder he pulls trying to get a solution, the more E he'll scrub, which if you're entering the fight at a disadvantage allows you to neutralize or even gain the E advantage. Thus what I said in my first response: shallow nose-low turn with him at your high 6 to bait him in, then break hard under him just as he's about to cross into guns range (it's really a feel thing, but generally between 800-600 yards is when you tighten your break to cross under). If you time it right and he doesn't recognize what you're doing, you can trick him into overcommitting to his guns pass, he'll still never get a shot, and he'll burn a lot of E trying to recover. If you follow this with a hard vertical zoom, you may even find yourself in a position where he's wallowing below you attempting to pull out (especially if he had a LOT of smash to start with). Kick hard over on the rudder and you'll swing right down in the saddle, or with a full-plane shot into his cockpit.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Debrody

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2014, 02:44:29 AM »
The F4U4 wins in every possible situation except the turning in flat circles.
Just like the others have said, use the flaps, but dont burn too much energy.
AoM
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Offline Widewing

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2014, 09:56:37 AM »
The F4U4 wins in every possible situation except the turning in flat circles.
Just like the others have said, use the flaps, but dont burn too much energy.

With both having flaps out, the F4U-4 turns smaller circles, with a slight difference in turn rate...

Below: Sustained turn radius and rate. This is MOSQ's data, and my testing agrees within +/- 4 feet (typically, within 0.6%).

Type/Radius in feet/Rate in degrees per second. I included the F6F-5 for reference. All types tested with 25% fuel.

F4U-4/440.7/19.6

Spit16/472.1/20.1

F6F-5/453.1/20.8

Given equal pilots, the F4U-4 will slowly get around on the Spit16. The Hellcat will get around on the Spit16 sooner, having a smaller radius and better turn rate.

When flying like this, fuel load is an important factor. Of course, the single greatest factor is the ability of the pilot to fly right to the edge of a stall and sustain that for 5 to 10 complete circles without a bobble or mistake. In that regard, there are very few who can manage this. However, the purpose here is to show the potential and capability of the aircraft only.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2014, 10:04:30 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline BnZs

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2014, 10:09:34 AM »
Mosq also lists the the Spit16's non-flap radius as 23 dps. So would the Spit guy in this situation be better leaving flaps up for the most part, sticking to the nose-to-tail chase and using the vertical to deny the -4 nose-to-nose turning when he reverses?

With both having flaps out, the F4U-4 turns smaller circles, with a slight difference in turn rate...

Below: Sustained turn radius and rate. This is MOSQ's data, and my testing agrees within +/- 4 feet (typically, within 0.6%).

Type/Radius in feet/Rate in degrees per second. I included the F6F-5 for reference. All types tested with 25% fuel.

F4U-4/440.7/19.6

Spit16/472.1/20.1

F6F-5/453.1/20.8

Given equal pilots, the F4U-4 will slowly get around on the Spit16. The Hellcat will get around on the Spit16 sooner, having a smaller radius and better turn rate.

When flying like this, fuel load is an important factor. Of course, the single greatest factor is the ability of the pilot to fly right to the edge of a stall and sustain that for 5 to 10 complete circles without a bobble or mistake. In that regard, there are very few who can manage this. However, the purpose here is to show the potential and capability of the aircraft only.

"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Debrody

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2014, 10:40:32 AM »
Mosq also lists the the Spit16's non-flap radius as 23 dps. So would the Spit guy in this situation be better leaving flaps up for the most part, sticking to the nose-to-tail chase and using the vertical to deny the -4 nose-to-nose turning when he reverses?
Exactly, thats the Spit's only real chance. Flat, rolling or vertical scissors, the 4-hog is a beast.

However, if the Spitfire pilot is superior to the Corsair's, anything can happen - theese planes arent that far from each other.
AoM
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Offline albs

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Re: F4u-4 vs Spit XVI
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2014, 06:43:06 PM »
Had two fights last night with a spit16 in the dueling arena. The first ended badly many mistakes were made. The second was a draw. The difference was completely different tactics. The first fight I opened with an altitude advantage and fought with vertical turns the result was by the third loop over we were even in energy and he got behind me. At that point it was game over. The second I fought horizontally and started at lower altitude than my opponent. I made sure I was constantly meeting him nose to nose. after several minutes neither of us were getting angles on the other eventually my opponent withdrew due to being out of ammo and since I was injured I too returned to base. I made several observations during this fight. At the merge I almost made it around to my opponents six, but I pushed to hard and spun out. You also will have better energy retention pulling a horizontal turn nose high or low depending on initial speed rather than a pure vertical turn. I also noted that once you neutralize energy with the opponent make sure when you pass each other to reverse your turn. The reversals nearly put me at six o'clock (except I kept passing out due to being wounded).You also shouldn't fight using vertical turns unless you can out climb your opponent or at least not against a plane that works the vertical better than you with or without an energy advantage.