Phantom Admiration Society

[artik]

Another, truly iconic image.

[Rich46yo]

Puma you drove F4's?

I remember when Israel offered that upgrade. The Turks bought into it I believe and it bought a lot of time for airframes that would have otherwise been retired. The initial sale of F4s to Israel was timely as they were basically in an undeclared state of war in the early '70s and the Arabs feared the Phantom. They used it mostly as a ground pounder but that was where it was needed. Most of all against the Egyptian AA radar sights and artillery. I remember there was also a big ATA fight in that era where the IAF Phantoms shot down a bunch of MIGs tho the details are forgotten to me.

The IDF is modeled under western standards where junior officers and non-coms are given full authority to change battle plans and then backed up afterwards. If his orders are to go right and he see's it would be suicide he will go left and be supported. In the Arab armys, modeled to the Soviet model, going left will get you shot. Obedience to the regime is even more important then winning and thats our real advantage.

I think Iran is the only country still operating Phantoms. I might be wrong, Turkey and Israel might still have some for maritime strike. To this day I wouldnt underestimate them.

[GScholz]

Greece, Japan, South Korea, and Turkey also continue to operate the F-4.

[Puma44]

Puma you drove F4's?

Yep!

[hyzer]

When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell in the early 70's we used to truly hate the Phantom drivers.  We would be minding our business out in the boonies doing some training when they would practice attacks on us.  They would scare the fool out of you on the first run as you never saw them coming, just ear busting noise as they climbed out and did it again.   

[Rich46yo]

Yep!

What years may I ask? Dont worry, I know better then to ask what squadrons/Bases.

[Puma44]

82-87

[Zoney]

Imagine that.  I was a paratrooper at Ft. Richardson in '75.  We were working with a pair of F4s and an O2 practicing close air support.  When the jets announced they were low fuel and could only make one pass we asked for a pass on the friendlies.  It is awe inspiring to watch an F4 bottom out of his dive below the hilltop (very low hill at that) you are on then come right at you no more than 20' off the deck.  He pulled up as he passed over and did 2 rolls as he climbed away nearly vertical --- his wake destroyed our GP Medium tent, blew poncho hootch's apart and generally wreaked havoc.  :0  Dash 2 was quite a bit higher when he passed over…probably 50' or so.

It's a small world Colmbo 

[Puma44]

When I was stationed at Ft. Campbell in the early 70's we used to truly hate the Phantom drivers.  We would be minding our business out in the boonies doing some training when they would practice attacks on us.  They would scare the fool out of you on the first run as you never saw them coming, just ear busting noise as they climbed out and did it again.   

We enjoyed doing that for you grunts but, I only did it by invitation.  We did a nice two ship one in Egypt once with a shackle, vertical aileron rolls, and flares.  It was by invitation from the AF ALO embedded with the armored unit. He screamed how pleased the "GENERAL" was with our pass and asked for a second one.  I asked what General, and he replied, "the Corp Commander".  Using some judgement at that point, I replied that we were Bingo and RTB.  

[Rich46yo]

Well over 5,000 produced over a 36 year service life that saw all three jet services use them extensively. Just seeing them screwing around making practice ground runs would almost make you drop a load in your pants ; I can only imagine what it was like to be the enemy seeing one coming in on you to make you a crispy critter.

[Gman]

IMO the Phantom is by far and away the most successful truly multirole fighter made in terms of how many air forces accepted it.  Used by every service by the Army, used by more allies than you can shake sticks at, and still in service, what, 6 decades on (60s, 70s, etc on through to the 2010's).

After reading Mark Berent's books, the Rolling Thunder series, I became really interested in the F4, as he was a pilot of the Phantom for several tours in Vietnam.  Some great F4 vs Mig21 write ups in all that material.


Nefarious, got any "non gun chin" F4G pics, with the RWR and ECW stuff up in that spot instead of the M61?  Nice VF111 Sundowners pic, that was my fav squadron to build models of the F4 and F14 with, everybody loves the Sundowners scheme.  I read another great Phatom book written by a F4G Weasel pilot about his experience in the 1st Gulf War, attacking airbases with multiple Sa2, SA3, and Mig 29 threats in the old F4G.

Great quote from that book -

“More than most aircraft, the F-4G was built around the fellow in the back seat, who often pushed the pickle button for the missiles, I was busy not so much looking for SAM sites as using the radar to look for enemy aircraft or for friendlies that might cause fratricide. I was mostly head-down in the cockpit.”

F-4G Advanced Wild Weasels flew many hundreds of other combat missions without suffering losses – taking out 74 percent of the enemy missile radars destroyed during the war. Just one F-4G Phantom was lost.

[hyzer]

Fighter Pilot: The Memoirs of Legendary Ace Robin Olds talks extensively about when he commanded the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing, based at Ubon Royal Thai Air Force Base flying Phantoms 1965ish.  While it goes pretty heavily into his personal life, as it should obviously, it also has plenty of P38 and P51 action. Highly recommended read.   

[Rich46yo]

If the F4 Phantom ever deserved praise the most it would come from, I believe, its performance during the Yom Kippur war. Its K/D ratio was in the area of 15 to 1 but that really doesnt mean much. If it was for the F4 the IAF never would have reduced Arab AAA batteries and other high value ground targets and never would have been able to wrest the initiative away from their enemy.

So without the F4s this war probably would have gone nuclear and/or super power involvement and who knows what would have happened after that?

Luckily America resupplied the Israelis thru Operation Nickle Grass, including many F4 Phantoms, and the Phantom performed admirably. Perhaps even preventing a wider holocaust. Perhaps even it was the airplanes finest hour.

[bozon]

If the F4 Phantom ever deserved praise the most it would come from, I believe, its performance during the Yom Kippur war. Its K/D ratio was in the area of 15 to 1 but that really doesnt mean much. If it was for the F4 the IAF never would have reduced Arab AAA batteries and other high value ground targets and never would have been able to wrest the initiative away from their enemy.

So without the F4s this war probably would have gone nuclear and/or super power involvement and who knows what would have happened after that?

Luckily America resupplied the Israelis thru Operation Nickle Grass, including many F4 Phantoms, and the Phantom performed admirably. Perhaps even preventing a wider holocaust. Perhaps even it was the airplanes finest hour.

The F4s were unable to destroy the Egyptian SAMs and suffered heavy losses. The SAMs were destroyed by the tank force, led by Ariel Sharon that crossed the Suez canal through a gap in the Egyptian forces and rampaged everything behind the front, on the west side of the canal. With the SAMs gone, the IAF could move in and hammer the Egyptian army now trapped on the east side canal.

AFAIK, the US did not supply any planes during the war. All the F4s arrived before. It did send large amount of munitions and small weapons that were surplus from the Vietnam war. One of my M-16s during my service was from one of those series that were used in Vietnam and delivered to the IDF in 1973. Unlike the 6-days war, the role of the IAF in the final result was much smaller. This time it was the ground forces, and in particular the tanks that did most of the work.

The F4s took such a beating from the SAMs that Ezer Weizmann (legendary ex-air force commander and future president of Israel) said metaphorically that "the missile has bent the wing of the plane". The lessons were learned though and 9 years later in 1982 (Lebanon war) the Syrian SAMs were obliterated with out losses. The IAF did not use the F4s like the american wild weasels to do it, but used other kind of weapons and combined arms tactics.

[Rich46yo]

Phantoms were thrown into action on both fronts and faced a variety of new threats, including vehicle-mounted SA- 6 and shoulder-mounted SA-7 Strella surface-to-air missiles. The Israelis struck decisively against Syrian SAM sites on October 7, and acknowledged the loss of one Phantom in that fighting.


Before the October 1973 conflict, the United States had been delivering Phantoms at the rate of two per month. When war erupted, Operation Nickel Grass followed, through which F-4Es pulled directly from the U. S. inventory were ferried to Israel and immediately thrown into battle, once modified with the Israeli-style refueling receptacle on the right front in place of the U.S.-style dorsal receptacle. One TISEO-equipped late model F-4E actually flew into combat still wearing an SJ tail code telling the world that it had just arrived from Colonel Len C. Russell's 4th Thactical Fighter Wing at Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, N.C.

Thirty-four Phantoms were added to Israel's inventory through Operation Nickel Grass. Counting further purchases made after the 1973 fighting, Israel received 204 Phantoms in all. http://www.historynet.com/mcdonnell-f-4-phantom-essential-aircraft-in-the-air-warfare-in-the-middle-east.htm

The F4s were unable to destroy the Egyptian SAMs and suffered heavy losses. The SAMs were destroyed by the tank force, led by Ariel Sharon that crossed the Suez canal through a gap in the Egyptian forces and rampaged everything behind the front, on the west side of the canal. With the SAMs gone, the IAF could move in and hammer the Egyptian army now trapped on the east side canal.

AFAIK, the US did not supply any planes during the war. All the F4s arrived before. It did send large amount of munitions and small weapons that were surplus from the Vietnam war. One of my M-16s during my service was from one of those series that were used in Vietnam and delivered to the IDF in 1973. Unlike the 6-days war, the role of the IAF in the final result was much smaller. This time it was the ground forces, and in particular the tanks that did most of the work.

The F4s took such a beating from the SAMs that Ezer Weizmann (legendary ex-air force commander and future president of Israel) said metaphorically that "the missile has bent the wing of the plane". The lessons were learned though and 9 years later in 1982 (Lebanon war) the Syrian SAMs were obliterated with out losses. The IAF did not use the F4s like the american wild weasels to do it, but used other kind of weapons and combined arms tactics.

Yes that is true. I went from memory and mixed up the Bekka Valley battle with the YK War.