Author Topic: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.  (Read 8994 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #150 on: July 25, 2014, 01:07:55 PM »
I had a cold so my sinuses popped loudly, that's about it.

 :rofl

'OMG the plane's been hit, oh no wait...'.  :lol


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Offline Serenity

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #151 on: July 25, 2014, 01:14:16 PM »
There are already systems currently in widespread use which cannot be cracked. No one has or can find a way around those. Not in good time anyway  :banana:

Could you name one? I certainly can't.

It's a worthy idea to try to come up with a way to prevent missiles from target civilian airlines, but just like ECM led to ECCM, there will always be someone trying to crack it. And considering a RESPONSIBLE operator on the ground would help prevent us from NEEDING missiles that avoid civilian aircraft, and those who AREN'T responsible enough to avoid shooting are also NOT responsible enough to purchase the more-expensive civilian-avoiding missiles, there really isn't much point in spending billions of dollars on an ongoing arms race.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #152 on: July 25, 2014, 01:32:15 PM »
Could you name one? I certainly can't.

RSA with a reasonable length key cannot be broken if they are cycled on a shorter rotation that they can be unfactored.


It's a worthy idea to try to come up with a way to prevent missiles from target civilian airlines, but just like ECM led to ECCM, there will always be someone trying to crack it. And considering a RESPONSIBLE operator on the ground would help prevent us from NEEDING missiles that avoid civilian aircraft, and those who AREN'T responsible enough to avoid shooting are also NOT responsible enough to purchase the more-expensive civilian-avoiding missiles, there really isn't much point in spending billions of dollars on an ongoing arms race.

Hmmm well my idea depended on precluding reverse engineering. There is indeed an interesting converse relationship between those designing and developing the weapons systems and those that often seem to end up getting hold of them. You have to wonder what other human problems this ingenuity could be applied to.

Oh well, costs nothing to discuss creative ideas.


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Offline Serenity

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2014, 03:49:00 PM »
RSA with a reasonable length key cannot be broken if they are cycled on a shorter rotation that they can be unfactored.


Hmmm well my idea depended on precluding reverse engineering. There is indeed an interesting converse relationship between those designing and developing the weapons systems and those that often seem to end up getting hold of them. You have to wonder what other human problems this ingenuity could be applied to.

Oh well, costs nothing to discuss creative ideas.




It's not just individual code-cracking that can be used to defeat such a system. What would prevent people from taking an actual 767, gutting the center of it, and putting a bomb-bay there instead? How does one uniquely identify a military aircraft universally?

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2014, 06:34:19 PM »

I love the way people can poo poo an idea with total confidence without knowing what it is or the background of the person suggesting it. So jaded are you that you can't imagine attempting to improve the world is worth the effort?



I didn't "poo poo" idea, I just pointed out realistically that What one man can make, another can find a way around. On top of that, who's to say the guy that comes up with "the idea" doesn't just turn around and sell it to the enemy anyway. I know what kind of world we live in, do you?

Offline GScholz

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2014, 06:42:43 PM »
:rofl

'OMG the plane's been hit, oh no wait...'.  :lol


You may laugh, but I thought my head was going to explode. Was very traumatic!  ;)
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #156 on: July 26, 2014, 02:40:18 AM »
It's not just individual code-cracking that can be used to defeat such a system. What would prevent people from taking an actual 767, gutting the center of it, and putting a bomb-bay there instead?

Doesn't each nations branch of the civil aviation authority operate with the co-operation and support of its legitimate government? I did mention a continuous cycle of valid codes. Of course there will always be edge cases. I didn't propose to address those.


How does one uniquely identify a military aircraft universally?

You can't, but you can uniquely identify a legitimate civilian aircraft.


I didn't "poo poo" idea, I just pointed out realistically that What one man can make, another can find a way around.

Respectfully Mr. Fugitive that is untrue. There are systems which cannot be reversed engineered. You already use these you're probably just unaware of them. Regarding work-arounds you only need to make it impractical enough that other approaches become considerably more viable. Look at international trade for example.


On top of that, who's to say the guy that comes up with "the idea" doesn't just turn around and sell it to the enemy anyway.

Aren't there already methods to secure important things?


I know what kind of world we live in, do you?

 :lol  I have my subjective model of the world just like you do. Perhaps ours differ in that I would never be put off creating solutions that don't exist yet by people who are convinced they would never work.


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Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #157 on: July 26, 2014, 02:41:18 AM »
You may laugh, but I thought my head was going to explode. Was very traumatic!  ;)

 :rofl :aok

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Offline Serenity

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #158 on: July 26, 2014, 10:52:35 AM »
Doesn't each nations branch of the civil aviation authority operate with the co-operation and support of its legitimate government? I did mention a continuous cycle of valid codes. Of course there will always be edge cases. I didn't propose to address those.


You can't, but you can uniquely identify a legitimate civilian aircraft.


How?

Again, looking at our current situation. Ukraine has military and civilian aircraft. So if I'm understanding your codes suggestion correctly, the civilian airplanes are given a new set of codes every so many days, and these codes identify them as civilian, correct? So what's to stop the current Ukranian government from taking one of the civilian airliners in their country, continuing to use the civilian codes, but using the plane to drop paratroopers on the rebels?

Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #159 on: July 26, 2014, 02:01:18 PM »
Again, looking at our current situation. Ukraine has military and civilian aircraft. So if I'm understanding your codes suggestion correctly, the civilian airplanes are given a new set of codes every so many days, and these codes identify them as civilian, correct? So what's to stop the current Ukranian government from taking one of the civilian airliners in their country, continuing to use the civilian codes, but using the plane to drop paratroopers on the rebels?

Well, we can only hope there are enough Boeing 727s still in service then we can call them the DB Cooper paratroop brigade. Is it actually possible to paratroop from the side doors of an airliner? 'Converting' them to have a bomb bay also doesn't seem viable to me. Additionally couldn't you identify a parachute drop by altitude and flightpath?

Perhaps it's the nature of this forum but I'm interested to note that most objections to such a system aren't about protecting civilian aircraft but making sure the weapon is still effective against aggressors. It's not as if SAMs are the only way to remove an aggressive aircraft. Wouldn't you rather let the 1 in 1,000,000 aircraft go to be dealt with by other defense systems that are more discriminating and avoid loss of civilian life?


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Offline GScholz

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #160 on: July 26, 2014, 04:15:33 PM »
Nope. The effectiveness of the weapon system is paramount. It isn't really a technological question; no one in their right mind would build a weapon that can be remotely deactivated by a third party, and certainly no one would buy it. If it becomes a demand by politicians not in their right minds then that part of the weapon system is the first thing the military will disable when the shooting starts. Avoiding civilian casualties is secondary to winning the war.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 04:17:16 PM by GScholz »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2014, 01:34:59 AM »
Avoiding civilian casualties is secondary to winning the war.

Not for very much longer I think.



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Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2014, 01:44:18 AM »
Interesting article with some video footage of the reaction of the Dutch people.

http://time.com/3025307/malaysia-flight-17-netherlands-dutch-mourning/

"The Dutch people who died on MH17 mirror their own rapidly evolving society, and remind the rest of us that our futures don’t lie in tribalism, but in expanding our connections".


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Offline zack1234

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #163 on: July 27, 2014, 04:26:46 AM »
Gibberish Shida

That is why Scotland wants independance :old:

And we have more Ultra right wing nationalist countries now in the EU

Poland,Latvia and Ukraine are raving Nationalists, when they cant get want from the EU they will start getting moody :)

This is the future Shida no amount of tree hugging will stop it, at least the colonials can go down to RED jacket and get a insurance policy :rofl
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Malaysian Air flight shot down over Ukraine with 295 aboard.
« Reply #164 on: July 27, 2014, 07:04:54 AM »
I do not endorse hugging trees. Progress is ongoing whether you like it or not. Get with the programme and make a contribution, you pessimistic stuffy old farts  :old:
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"