Author Topic: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.  (Read 750 times)

Offline BnZs

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I've been trying to put the instructions from "Fighter Combat" for the co-e similar aircraft energy fight into practice, and I can't seem to make it work well. Any hints, or better yet videos? Thank you.  :salute
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Offline FLS

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Re: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 03:31:57 PM »
A more specific question or a description of the problem would be helpful.  A co-E energy fight would generally have you ease your turns and work to gain altitude for the E advantage.

Offline BnZs

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Re: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 04:45:15 PM »
Well...I wouldn't know precisely what to ask really. A good film of such a fight being carried out against a competent opponent would be worth a thousand words in help I think.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Online Puma44

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Re: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2014, 11:22:23 PM »
Typically, with two equally matched aircraft and pilots, the first one to make a mistake loses the engagement.  There are a lot of ways to make the first mistake.  One is: Lose sight, lose fight. 



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Offline Badboy

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Re: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 07:35:11 AM »
I've been trying to put the instructions from "Fighter Combat" for the co-e similar aircraft energy fight into practice, and I can't seem to make it work well. Any hints, or better yet videos? Thank you.  :salute

Hi BnZs

Normally, how you decide if it is better to use energy or angles tactics is determined by very obvious factors. For instance a pilot with an energy advantage may choose to energy fight, or in a dissimilar aircraft engagement one aircraft may be much better suited to one style or the other. In those cases the choices and tactics are fairly well known.

The important point here is that the choice between using energy or angles tactics is most often determined by significant differences in energy or aircraft performance capabilities. In the vast majority of cases energy tactics are only used when there is an energy advantage or if one aircraft is significantly better suited to it than the other. 

However your question is asking how to apply energy tactics when everything else is equal and in that case the application is far more subtle. This is because it is easier to maintain an energy advantage when you start out with one, you can conserve energy blatantly, by pulling less g or working the vertical. However, when everything starts out equal, those things can get you killed fairly quickly. However you can still make energy tactics work, you just need to be more subtle about and the following scenarios explain how you can do that with increasing levels of subtlety.

Firstly, if you assume that your co-e, similar aircraft fight begins at the merge, the most obvious application of energy tactics is to merge and then just begin an easy low g climb. If your opponent pulls hard into a break turn at the merge then you are energy fighting and he will be angles fighting. It is easy to gain an energy advantage that way, which is why the better players watch what their opponent does at the merge and react accordingly so that they don't give away a big energy advantage. This is an easy way to apply energy tactics if there is a difference in skill levels, but against good pilots it is too obvious and easy to counter.

More subtle variations on that are spiral climbs at the merge, in which the idea is to start by not pulling max g and watching your opponent's position. If they seem to be gaining angles, it means they are pulling harder and bleeding off all their energy for a first shot opportunity. You can capitalize on this by waiting until they almost have a shot and then rolling out and pulling into the vertical. Because you didn't pull so hard in the spiral climb you have more speed and will be able to make the vertical turn, but they will be all out of energy and already almost falling off the turn as they try desperately for the shot. You can then come over the top and find them hanging below you ready to be picked like an over ripe cherry. This can succeed because the spiral climb disguises your intention to energy fight and thus tempts your opponent into giving up everything for a quick shot.

Lastly, energy tactics can be applied in a co-e similar aircraft engagement even when both pilots are all out balls to the wall stall fighting. However the techniques become even more subtle and to explain we need to talk through an actual engagement.

Consider two similar aircraft, let's say Spitfires, both same altitude, same speed (some speed below corner velocity) and neutral positions. You will picture them in a nose to tail turn on opposite sides of the circle, everything at this point is equal.

However, one of the pilots has the mindset of an angles fighter, let's call him Pilot A, the other pilot has the mindset of an energy fighter, let's call him Pilot B. Now, Pilot A wants to gain angles and he knows that he can maximise his turn rate by flying at corner velocity so he initiates a low yo-yo and maintains sufficient aft stick to stay on the edge of the stall. As he descends into the low yo-yo his speed increases and so does his turn rate, he is gaining angles. So far so good.

Now let's look at Pilot B's response. He can see Pilot A initiate a low yo-yo and recognises that Pilot A is attempting to gain an angular advantage, so his response is to enter a shallow spiral climb in order to gain a little altitude and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get a shot as he exits at the top of  his low yo-yo. He also pulls sufficient aft stick to remain at the edge of the stall, because he knows that he will also need to maximise his turn rate in the spiral climb and make it more difficult for Pilot A to get that shot. At the end of the maneuver sequence, Pilot A may have come very close to getting a shot, but for the sake of argument, let's say he didn't quite get his nose into position.

Now let's consider their relative energy situation. During this fight Pilot A increased his speed in the low yo-yo and pulled more G, both of which increased drag and cost energy. Also because his speed increased, he also lost thrust and that cost energy too. Pilot B maintained a maximum sustained turn at a lower speed and lower G therefore less drag and more thrust so he will have gained energy relative to pilot A. There will now be a significant energy difference between the two fighters. The fight is a long way from being over, but we can stop here because the point below can now be made

During that evolution, both aircraft were stall fighting the entire time. However, one had the intention of sacrificing energy for angles and flew his aircraft accordingly, and the other had the intention of sacrificing angles for energy and he also flew accordingly. One was the angles fighter, the other was the energy fighter and they were both stall fighting the whole time.

I hope that these explanations helps to clarify it for you.

Badboy     
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 09:05:52 AM by Badboy »
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Offline Muzzy

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Re: Question for those who've red Shaw, the similar plane Energy fight.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 07:56:36 AM »
The above was incredibly helpful. Thank you. I find I am at the stage in my flying where the pilots that beat me are more flexible in their merge strategy and obtain an e advantage by reacting to my moves. I find that you can tell a lot about a pilot by what they do in that first pass, but I've yet to learn to vary my approach based on what I see. Thanks for showing me what some of my options are.


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