Robin Olds' MIG Killer

[Puma44]

Reposting previous photos due to inadvertent deletion out of my photobucket album.

[Squire]

I think all of Olds kills were with Sidewinders yes? or did he get a gun kill? great pics too.

[Puma44]

A couple of quotes out of wiki.  Ditto on the AIM-4.   Pretty much a low end bottle rocket in performance and reliability.  We affectionately called them "hittiles" vs. "missles" since they had to impact the target with one of the fins, making contact with the fuzing mechanism and thus set off the warhead.


"Olds often lamented the lack of an internal gun in the F-4C he flew during his tour in Vietnam, but would not allow his fighters to be equipped with the gun pods then available. While he knew that he would be capable of effectively using them, he was also aware that none of his pilots were trained in the use of a gun or dogfighting. He also reasoned that the drag of the pod would both degrade the performance characteristics of the F-4 while not gaining it any advantage against the more maneuverable MiG-17s and MiG-21s, result in unnecessary losses strafing worthless targets, and reduce the number of bombs carried by the Phantoms, the delivery of which was the 8th's primary mission."

"By the beginning of June, we all hated the new AIM-4 Falcon missiles. I loathed the damned useless things. I wanted my Sidewinders back. In two missions I had fired seven or eight of the bloody things and not one guided. They were worse than I had anticipated. Sometimes they refused to launch; sometimes they just cruised off into the blue without guiding. In the thick of an engagement with my head twisting and turning, trying to keep track of friend and foe, I'd forget which of the four I had (already) selected and couldn't tell which of the remaining was perking and which head was already expiring on its launch rail. Twice upon returning to base I had the tech rep go over the switchology and firing sequences. We never discovered I was doing anything wrong.[3]

Col. Olds became exasperated with the Falcon's poor combat performance. He ordered his entire fighter wing rewire the F-4D's to carry more reliable Sidewinders. Although it was an unauthorized field modification, the entire air force eventually followed his example. An effort to address the limitations of AIM-4D led to the development in 1970 of the XAIM-4H, which had a laser proximity fuze, new warhead, and better maneuverability. It was cancelled the following year without entering service."

[bozon]

A couple of quotes out of wiki.  Ditto on the AIM-4.   Pretty much a low end bottle rocket in performance and reliability.  We affectionately called them "hittiles" vs. "missles" since they had to impact the target with one of the fins, making contact with the fuzing mechanism and thus set off the warhead.


"Olds often lamented the lack of an internal gun in the F-4C he flew during his tour in Vietnam, but would not allow his fighters to be equipped with the gun pods then available. While he knew that he would be capable of effectively using them, he was also aware that none of his pilots were trained in the use of a gun or dogfighting. He also reasoned that the drag of the pod would both degrade the performance characteristics of the F-4 while not gaining it any advantage against the more maneuverable MiG-17s and MiG-21s, result in unnecessary losses strafing worthless targets, and reduce the number of bombs carried by the Phantoms, the delivery of which was the 8th's primary mission."

...

The Israeli air force also had very little trust in air to air missiles in the late 60s and 70s. A fighter without a cannon was completely unacceptable. Even during the 1973 war, with Aim-7's, improved Aim-9's, and Israeli Shafrir II missiles (equivalent to Aim-9's) there were more gun kills than missile kills as far as I know. IAF F4s with their built-in guns did great against Mig17, 19 & 21s. They still liked the AIM-7s because they often scared the enemy and made the F4s get into the dogfight at more favorable conditions - and once in a while the missiles did actually work.

Even in 1982 Lebanon war, still improved AIM-7s (from F-15s) failed often, this time due to electronic counter measures by Syrian Migs. While IR missiles did most of the killing, there were still some gun kills by F15s and F16s. One F4 managed to steal a kill from under the noses of his F-15 "escorts" making it the only F4 kill in that war and the last F4 kill in the IAF service. I don't remember what weapon was used. Perhaps I can find that story.

edit:
OK found that story. The F4 was RTB over lebanon and joined up with a foursome of F15s. They came across a pair of mig21s. One F15 fired AIM7 at a mig and connected. The F4 fired AIM7 at the other - the F4's missile failed. Another Mig21 showed up and fired a missile HO at the F15s, missed and made a break turn. The F15s saw him too late and the F4 was on the Mig21's tail and shot it down with a missile (probably IR, not sure what kind).

[Puma44]

The internal gun you refer to is in the F-4E.  6,000 rounds per minute of 20 mm is quite impressive.  In the "E" model, a pilot with a light touch on the trigger could plan on three, two second bursts before the gun was empty.  During strafing runs on the range, pilots would bet on who could get the least number of rounds out of the gun on each pass.  As soon as the electrical connection was made with the trigger, the gun wold spin up very quickly.  So, it was a matter of just tickling the trigger.  

The AIM-7s have great capability, but with any complex weapon many things can go wrong.  Once, when firing an AIM-7F the missile launched with a loud whoosh but disappeared and didn't come out front where it should have.  So, like a tree full of owls, we were looking all over for it.  We suddenly saw it coming from low left and out front of us in a slow barrel roll.  With its fuel exhausted, it rolled over and vertical nose down beyond a cloud deck at low level.  I stroked the burners to MAX to run it down and see what it was going to do next.  Just as we crossed the cloud formation, the missile speared the ocean about a quarter mile short of a couple of Phillipinos in their banca boat.    

After RTB in the debrief, our chase jet guys said the Sparrow separated, lit off, dove down with a hard right turn toward them, which they almost did a defensive break turn for, and continued in a huge barrel roll over the top of us to the left.  As it continued rolling back up, that was where we spotted it.  Of course the powers to be assumed we had screwed up something with switchology and/or didn't have a radar lock.  Since this was the first "F" fired off an F-4 in PACAF, it had a telemetry package installed.  The results showed perfect switch positions and a solid radar lock.  As it turned out, the weapons loaders didn't engage two of the four main body steering fins during the load process.  So, when it came off the jet, the two interconnected fins went to full deflection in the slipstream while the other two were attempting to steer the missile normally.  Hence, the impressive barrel roll and near kill on a banca boat, not to mention a near miss with our chase.

So, the option of stepping in the phone booth for a knife fight was always the most reliable option.

[Puma44]

Here's a good write up on the event:

http://www.historynet.com/pardos-push-an-incredible-feat-of-airmanship.htm

Sorry fellas, wrong thread......brain fart on my part. 

[FLOOB]

That was the wind powered 20mm pod wasn't it?

[Puma44]

That was the wind powered 20mm pod wasn't it?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._aircraft_gun_pods

Yes and no.  

[Old Sport]

Anybody know what kind of "counter measures" the verticle antennas are for?

 



I doubt they used them in 'nam.   

[colmbo]

Birds, keeps them from crapping all over everything.   

[Puma44]

Shack, Columbo!   

[Arlo]

And before that ......



(For the 'pee dirty ape'-ers and 'pee fitty wonders' in AH)  

[colmbo]

According to his book he got a kill in the P-38 while dead-stick due to fuel starvation, forgot to switch tanks before dropping the drop tanks.

[pipz]

According to his book he got a kill in the P-38 while dead-stick due to fuel starvation, forgot to switch tanks before dropping the drop tanks.

He mentions that incident in his episode of Dogfights.  

Here it is.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFPFp3nHk2Q

Huzzah!

[branch37]

I gave Old's book to my grandfather who was a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force working for SAC at the time.  I gave him the book mostly to see his reaction to Old's experiences as inspector general calling SAC out on a lot of major flaws in the way they operated their bomber bases.  Needless to say, his reaction was a little heated.