Ethics of HO Shooting.....

[Skyyr]

Yup.  He chose to pull to put himself in front of the opponent's guns instead of avoiding the vector that put him there.  It's no different than if the two of them were at off angles and he flew in front of the opponent.  He could have picked a line that doesn't put him in front of the other guy's guns.  The fact that they were nose to nose at that moment is meaningless.  He flew in front of the other guy's guns, but because of his warped worldview, screamed 'HOME FREE!' and expected the other guy not to fire.

Putting your plane where it can be shot by the enemy is commonly called 'losing the fight.'

Wiley.

Precisely. Many pilots think that you have to head directly at the opponent (or cross their guns) - this is false. The reason for wanting to head directly at an opponent is simple: you neutralize the enemy gaining any angles on you at the cost of presenting them a shot. Avoid flying directly in their line of fire and the problem is solved, but you give up angles.

Only someone who is unnaturally inclined to turnfighting would view this as some kind of "problem." For every other sim and community, this is widely understood as part of ACM. You fly in front of your opponent's guns for aggressive angles maneuvering... and you heavily risk getting shot. Yet here, for some reason, people thing that you must allow your opponent angles on the merge without shooting them. This is ridiculous, of course, as a cold-guns merge only benefits one of the turnfighters, typically the most aggressive one, while a hot merge offsets aggressive gains in angles with an increased probability of being shot.

The merge is a balancing act... and you alone are responsible for what happens once you enter your opponent's weapon range.

[Triton28]

Yup.  He chose to pull to put himself in front of the opponent's guns instead of avoiding the vector that put him there.  It's no different than if the two of them were at off angles and he flew in front of the opponent.  He could have picked a line that doesn't put him in front of the other guy's guns.  The fact that they were nose to nose at that moment is meaningless.  He flew in front of the other guy's guns, but because of his warped worldview, screamed 'HOME FREE!' and expected the other guy not to fire.

Wiley.

No, because whether you believe it or not, you've been in situations in this game where the decision to HO was made by the pilot who's attacking you.  Especially given that the most unavoidable of those situations the attacker is the one who completely dictates the beginning of the engagement, with the defender simply having to react to what he's faced with.  

If both planes always fire in face on situations, the game would be more fun for you to play?  You enjoy hours and hours of playing chicken with airplanes and having a coin flip determine who "wins"?  Does out HO'ing another toon pilot give you the same sense of accomplishment and enjoyment as outmaneuvering/outsmarting/outplaying your opponent?  If that's what you call fun, I'd say it's your worldview that's warped.  

Putting your plane where it can be shot by the enemy is commonly called 'losing the fight.'

We merge, HO the piss out of each other, you explode and I'm beat to a pulp and have to RTB.  You didn't lose a fight that was really worth winning.  

[Wiley]

No, because whether you believe it or not, you've been in situations in this game where the decision to HO was made by the pilot who's attacking you.  Especially given that the most unavoidable of those situations the attacker is the one who completely dictates the beginning of the engagement, with the defender simply having to react to what he's faced with.  

The only thing you can be talking about here is the initial merge, and there are far better options as the 'defender' than succumbing to the coin flip you so detest.

If he bounces you from the front and you have no E to maneuver, that's not a HO problem, that's an E management problem.  If you're 1v4 and one of them face shoots you while you're turning hard, that's a ganging problem, not a HO problem, and in fact it's a gift because he gave you a chance to fire back at him.

If both planes always fire in face on situations, the game would be more fun for you to play?

That's not what I said.  What I said was, 1v1 on the first merge, there is no such thing as an unavoidable HO.

You enjoy hours and hours of playing chicken with airplanes and having a coin flip determine who "wins"?  Does out HO'ing another toon pilot give you the same sense of accomplishment and enjoyment as outmaneuvering/outsmarting/outplaying your opponent?  If that's what you call fun, I'd say it's your worldview that's warped.  

If I get pinged in something approximating a 1v1 more than 3 times in a week on the way in, I'm having an off week, and I get fired at on the merge in probably close to 3/4 of my engagements.  I said 'pinged' not 'damaged'.  Actually losing a part is much lower of an occurrence.

We merge, HO the piss out of each other, you explode and I'm beat to a pulp and have to RTB.  You didn't lose a fight that was really worth winning.  

Two planes merge, one guy shoots, the other guy slips it and gains position, now the fight's on, or the shooter dives out.  Either way the fight was won.

Wiley.

[wpeters]

I have to agree if you were killed in a Ho it was your fault.  You were the one that flew your plane into the ho....   There are so many ways to miss a ho that it is your fault not the opponets.   I had a fight 2 nights ago with a K4 in my 262. We went head to head. My taterz hit his missed even though he oiled my engine with 13mms.  
 
The funny thing was he accused me of the HO.. That is true. I hoed but it was his choice to accept it... I dont see why people get mad about it.  I was the one taking the biggest risk with 250 perkI s in the balance,. He accepted I killed him that simple.

The only reason I hit was he flew into the ho. Any other way and I would shot by without hitting.  


I will take a ho shot if and when I believe that

1 I am being picked.

2 If I am being ganged by more than 3 cons.

Any other time is a high angle shot where I have to put my plane in a harsh skid to lead and hit you.  

[DmonSlyr]

That isn't what I described.  Picture a two circle fight.  Both pilot pulling hard, Pilot A sees the HO coming and says, "I'm not gonna pipper this guy because I'd like to see this play out" and relaxes his turn.  Pilot B sees the HO coming and says, "Ehhh, I'll take my chances with the HO" and continues to pull.  Pilot B will likely have a front quarter shot without the other guy's guns on him.  It's not a HO, but it isn't sporting either.  When Pilot A fills up 200 with "you didn't have to HO", Pilot B can proudly say he did not HO, but he would have because that's what he was pulling for.  It's damn near the same thing.

Yeah this is a tough position right here. This actually happened in one of my fights vs skyyr. We were both coming around nose to nose but instead of going face to face, I relaxed the turn to try and get an angle advantage in a vert roll by avoiding a HO shot, but we were going to slow and this allowed an easy shot for him. Was obviously my mistake and was a good shot, but I should have just turned completly nose to nose and risked it. It happens and is a tough judgement.

As far as the rope HO goes. This is tough too. I mean really in truly, the guy following IMO has the advantage if the roper falls over too early and attempts the HO on plane that hasn't completely stalled out. Only because the roper should have attempted to pull back up in a climb after he flipped over instead of going straight down for the HO. If the roper goes for the HO on the fall down then the follower has a chance to get a HO shot. If the roper pulls back up and does a loop while the attacker is still climbing. Then he will completely stall out and the roper can make the kill. As far as the other guy goes.  It is not the best idea to get in this position in the first place. And if you see this is about to happens. Push that nose down as hard as you can and do some nose down rolls to get them to miss and then perform a BRD to attempt a defensive counterpunch. This is really your only chance in this type of a position when they have more E than you.

[Triton28]

The only thing you can be talking about here is the initial merge, and there are far better options as the 'defender' than succumbing to the coin flip you so detest.

If he bounces you from the front and you have no E to maneuver, that's not a HO problem, that's an E management problem.  If you're 1v4 and one of them face shoots you while you're turning hard, that's a ganging problem, not a HO problem, and in fact it's a gift because he gave you a chance to fire back at him.

That's not what I said.  What I said was, 1v1 on the first merge, there is no such thing as an unavoidable HO.

If I get pinged in something approximating a 1v1 more than 3 times in a week on the way in, I'm having an off week, and I get fired at on the merge in probably close to 3/4 of my engagements.  I said 'pinged' not 'damaged'.  Actually losing a part is much lower of an occurrence.

Two planes merge, one guy shoots, the other guy slips it and gains position, now the fight's on, or the shooter dives out.  Either way the fight was won.

Wiley.

Ok... one more time.  True story:

Con comes in to harass us climbing out to a furball.  Kinda turny plane too... this ain't no A8.  He's got energy and position, and he starts diving on people hoping for easy kills.  I start a high speed climb in his general direction hoping he'll get distracted by the veritable smorgasbord of low airplanes.  He dives on a teammate, zooms back up but realizes I'm now trying to get up to him.  He goes up rolls over at 2k and dives my high 12.  I've got some speed, but I can't get up to him without him coming down to me... which he does, guns blazing.  He died, I limped back home and landed.  Wow.  That was fun.  

Now, who made the choice to HO?

[Wiley]

Ok... one more time.  True story:

Con comes in to harass us climbing out to a furball.  Kinda turny plane too... this ain't no A8.  He's got energy and position, and he starts diving on people hoping for easy kills.  I start a high speed climb in his general direction hoping he'll get distracted by the veritable smorgasbord of low airplanes.  He dives on a teammate, zooms back up but realizes I'm now trying to get up to him.  He goes up rolls over at 2k and dives my high 12.  I've got some speed, but I can't get up to him without him coming down to me... which he does, guns blazing.  He died, I limped back home and landed.  Wow.  That was fun.  

Now, who made the choice to HO?

Both of you?  If you had enough speed to maneuver, you could've maneuvered for him to miss and started to break down his advantage or gotten his six, depending on what he did.  If you didn't have enough speed to maneuver to avoid, that's on you because you were climbing and slow directly under a bandit.

Wiley.

[FLS]

Ok... one more time.  True story:

Con comes in to harass us climbing out to a furball.  Kinda turny plane too... this ain't no A8.  He's got energy and position, and he starts diving on people hoping for easy kills.  I start a high speed climb in his general direction hoping he'll get distracted by the veritable smorgasbord of low airplanes.  He dives on a teammate, zooms back up but realizes I'm now trying to get up to him.  He goes up rolls over at 2k and dives my high 12.  I've got some speed, but I can't get up to him without him coming down to me... which he does, guns blazing.  He died, I limped back home and landed.  Wow.  That was fun.  

Now, who made the choice to HO?

Clearly you did unless he died in a collision.

[Zerstorer]

It's not much better to be pulling towards a nose to nose situation, watch the other pilot relax his turn or nose off slightly to avoid the HO, you fire, kill him, and then claim it wasn't a HO because his guns weren't on you.  This happens a lot, and while you're right, it doesn't meet the strict definition of a HO, it's equally lame.

Ah yes...

1.) The two pilots pull nose to nose.  Let's call them Pilot A and Pilot B.

2.) Pilot B "relaxes" his turn slightly.  By this I believe you are implying he is doing so for a "fight" to develop.  In other words, Pilot B is setting up to perform a last second evasive and reversal on Pilot A.  

3.) Pilot A sees he has a clear shot.  He further understands what Pilot B is going to attempt.

4.) Pilot A further recognizes that Pilot B has just screwed the pooch with his timing, and has has left himself open for a fraction of a second too long.

5.) Pilot A fires.

6.) Pilot B goes boom before he can perform his "fancy dance mov"...ahhhh...sorry..."reversal".

7.) Pilot B PMs Pilot A telling him what a dirtbag he is for taking advantage of his mista......ahhhhh...sorry again...for taking the shot.  

8.) Pilot B further goes on to add what an honorless scumbag Pilot A is for daring to take a front quarter shot, how skilless he is, etc etc etc.  



Yada yada yada.

Ad infinitum.

Ad nauseam.


*yawn*


For the ...*ahem*...."Sportsman"...there is always an excuse.....ALWAYS.  It is NEVER your fault.  

Helps keep that ego strong and fluffy!  

 

[Zerstorer]

Putting your plane where it can be shot by the enemy is commonly called 'losing the fight.'

This is sig worthy. 

[mbailey]

i know Triton is a HO...........


 

[Triton28]

Clearly you did unless he died in a collision.

He did actually collide..

[FLS]

He did actually collide..

You should include more of these irrelevant little details. Did you shoot at him?   

[Changeup]

I have to agree if you were killed in a Ho it was your fault.  You were the one that flew your plane into the ho....   There are so many ways to miss a ho that it is your fault not the opponets.   I had a fight 2 nights ago with a K4 in my 262. We went head to head. My taterz hit his missed even though he oiled my engine with 13mms.  
 
The funny thing was he accused me of the HO.. That is true. I hoed but it was his choice to accept it... I dont see why people get mad about it.  I was the one taking the biggest risk with 250 perkI s in the balance,. He accepted I killed him that simple.

The only reason I hit was he flew into the ho. Any other way and I would shot by without hitting.  


I will take a ho shot if and when I believe that

1 I am being picked.

2 If I am being ganged by more than 3 cons.

Any other time is a high angle shot where I have to put my plane in a harsh skid to lead and hit you.  

Please add lag to the reasons one might lose a HO.  It doesn't happen often but it happens more than anyone cares to admit. 

[Zerstorer]

Very true.  Just another of the reasons why true HO attack (nose on nose) is dumb.