Author Topic: p51 zoom climb  (Read 4049 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2015, 04:52:54 PM »
IIRC the p38 was the one who got the highest for no reason other then not having to fight torque.

No reason?  How about it's ability to retain energy better than quite a bit of the planes in this game?  It's lack of torque isn't the main reason for the P-38s zoom ability and high energy retention.
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Offline Canspec

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2015, 04:54:52 PM »
What!!! You shut your engine off when performing a zoom ?

Climb performance absolutely has an impact on zoom performance.

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oops....wrong quote.... :old:

Offline xPoisonx

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2015, 04:59:03 PM »
No reason?  How about it's ability to retain energy better than quite a bit of the planes in this game?  It's lack of torque isn't the main reason for the P-38s zoom ability and high energy retention.

IIRC - If i recall correctly - from the guy who posted that, the p38 got to around 7000 while the others to 6000-6500 in his test, and he said torque was the reason why, not me. This was awhile ago.
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2015, 05:01:04 PM »
Ya...I thought it was kind of a funny statement from a professional pilot....... :old:

We're talking in-game performance. Real life is a different story. In AH, there are many more factors, such as torque modeling, that affect functional climb rates. There's always outliers (e.g. Me 163), but you can hold this true as an overall rule of thumb.

For example, if we're trying to argue that X aircraft gains an overly-generous 800yds (2400ft) altitude difference in zoom climb over Y aircraft, most neglect that 800yds is still well within guns range and you're going to get shot by the guy you're trying to out-zoom climb. And that's an extreme example, most perform well within 1000ft of vertical climb distance of each other.

For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter much when comparing two aircraft zoom-climbing at the same speed. That is the context of the original statement.

What matters most is low drag / higher aspect wing ratio. This equates to a decent amount of maneuverability, with much less induced drag. This allows the pilot to go from varying climb angles and avoid the opponent climbing to them, while retaining enough E advantage to continue zoom climbing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 05:45:43 PM by Skyyr »
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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2015, 05:19:20 PM »
I did some tests for you AKAK

Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:

109K4 12.4k

190D9 12.4k

P38L 12.7k

P51D 12.5k

Ta152 12.6k

You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.

Dare I say skyyr was right?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 05:24:24 PM by xPoisonx »
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Offline Changeup

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2015, 05:49:08 PM »
I did some tests for you AKAK

Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:

109K4 12.4k

190D9 12.4k

P38L 12.7k

P51D 12.5k

Ta152 12.6k

You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.

Dare I say skyyr was right?



Actually, you'd be saying HiTech is wrong since he's the one that said Skyyr was wrong.

Edit:  nice passive/aggressive attack tho...not transparent at all, lol
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 05:51:01 PM by Changeup »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2015, 06:08:55 PM »
I did some tests for you AKAK

Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:

109K4 12.4k

190D9 12.4k

P38L 12.7k

P51D 12.5k

Ta152 12.6k

You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.

Dare I say skyyr was right?



Those test does nothing to affirm your statement that the lack of torque on the P-38 is the reason for it's excellent zoom climb capabilities.  How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III?  Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.

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Offline Skyyr

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2015, 06:12:36 PM »
How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III?  Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.

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Offline Canspec

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2015, 06:16:34 PM »
I did some tests for you AKAK

Each plane dove to 4k altitude and at 500 true air speed pulled up at 3G rate to a vertical climb, here are the results:

109K4 12.4k

190D9 12.4k

P38L 12.7k

P51D 12.5k

Ta152 12.6k

You can assume an error margin of around 100-200ft, all these planes' final altitudes were very similar, so I would say climb rate does not have a huge effect on the zoom climb, considering the lowest and highest were still in guns range.

Dare I say skyyr was right?



It appears he was right with the aircraft referenced as he corrected in a later post talking about in game modeling only...... :old:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 06:18:35 PM by Canspec »

Offline Skyyr

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2015, 06:38:49 PM »
It appears he was right with the aircraft referenced as he corrected in a later post talking about in game modeling only...... :old:

I wasn't correcting the statement, I was simply clarifying. I didn't think that people would apply my comment regarding ingame aircraft performance to real life.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 06:42:22 PM by Skyyr »
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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2015, 07:28:21 PM »
Actually, you'd be saying HiTech is wrong since he's the one that said Skyyr was wrong.

Edit:  nice passive/aggressive attack tho...not transparent at all, lol

I didn't say AKAK was wrong, I said I did some tests for him. I literally said the error margin was big, therefore my tests are no way hard evidence. What are you even doing here, you haven't said anything productive.
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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2015, 07:31:20 PM »
Those test does nothing to affirm your statement that the lack of torque on the P-38 is the reason for it's excellent zoom climb capabilities.  How do you explain the zoom capabilities of the A-20G/Boston III?  Can't use lack of torque as an explanation for those two planes.

ack-ack

Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant to imply that all the planes of that test basically had the same resulting altitude from a zoom climb starting at the same speed. And the reason the P38 was slightly higher was that it didn't torque over like the other planes did, it was able to use the last bit of its speed unlike the single engine planes who spun over before they reached 0 airspeed.

As for those two planes, weight and drag would come to mind... but what do I know.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 07:33:00 PM by xPoisonx »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2015, 07:34:47 PM »
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I meant to imply that all the planes of that test basically had the same resulting altitude from a zoom climb starting at the same speed. And the reason the P38 was slightly higher was that it didn't torque over like the other planes did, it was able to use the last bit of its speed unlike the single engine planes who spun over before they reached 0 airspeed.

As I pointed out, the test doesn't prove the claim that the lack of torque is the reason for the P-38's zoom ability.  Yes, the lack of torque helps but it's not the main factor as was your initial claim.

Might want to look at Skyyr's reply for the answer as to why the P-38 has an excellent zoom ability.

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Offline xPoisonx

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2015, 07:37:41 PM »
As I pointed out, the test doesn't prove the claim that the lack of torque is the reason for the P-38's zoom ability.  Yes, the lack of torque helps but it's not the main factor as was your initial claim.

Might want to look at Skyyr's reply for the answer as to why the P-38 has an excellent zoom ability.

ack-ack

My bad then. It is not the, "main factor".

It was never a claim though, I was posting what I remembered someone else saying. Keep in mind that all the planes were within guns range of each other at their final altitude.
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Offline darkzking

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Re: p51 zoom climb
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2015, 12:33:11 AM »
I notice your test didn't include p40 f4f or any of the poor climbing planes :uhoh :ahand :bolt:
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