Ripley's build it or not! (Big pictures)

[ebfd11]

After building about a dozen rigs myself, I have to agree with ripley on this one. But I did do something different, I used a 12 dollar rubber mat that I used plus an antistatic wrist band. If you are really worried about it you can also run a jumper, 2 alligator clips attached to a 4 ft section of 12 guage wire attached to a nail in the wall.

Like I have said, I have built a dozen rigs and have had zero problems. Waystin2, dkff49, and a few others can attest to their rigs that I have built for them.

Just remember, an ounce of prevention saves a pound of problems.

Lawndart

[olds442]

By your own explanation no ESD can occur since the case is floating. If it's not floating, touching the case will even up the potential, especially when the case is usually laying on it's side while it's being assembled. So you see you're making up problems and certainly not helping this thread. You're creating unnecessary fears for people who are thinking about making their first own build. Now you're talking about the need to have special ESD gear. What next? An electron microscope to check heatsink surfaces?

The instructions I gave are valid. I've done literally dozens of builds with no problems and people can SAVE literally hundreds of dollars of their hard earned money by breaking out of their fear and building their own.

Having the case floating or not does not have anything to do with ESD, lets say at 20kv there is no ESD and all your stuff is safe, touching the case also doesn't even up the voltage as I have said before because its not a capacitor. How ever if you have enough charge in your body to make a spark fly through the air then you can get ESD in a floating case because air is a better insulator than rubber. The whole point of grounding yourself is to discharge all residual voltage in your body before it can happen.

Let me put it this way, ESD is essentially very small scale lightning, there is a build up of electricity until a spark can fly through an insulator, in this case air.

How is it more gear? its literally just installing your power supply FIRST with it plugged in and switched off in the back or having a anti static rest strap that you can get for a 1.99$
http://superuser.com/questions/262641/grounding-yourself-before-while-you-are-building-a-computer
look at the last post in that thread to see how antistatic mats work.

After building about a dozen rigs myself, I have to agree with ripley on this one. But I did do something different, I used a 12 dollar rubber mat that I used plus an antistatic wrist band. If you are really worried about it you can also run a jumper, 2 alligator clips attached to a 4 ft section of 12 guage wire attached to a nail in the wall.

Like I have said, I have built a dozen rigs and have had zero problems. Waystin2, dkff49, and a few others can attest to their rigs that I have built for them.

Just remember, an ounce of prevention saves a pound of problems.

Lawndart

And by using the anti static rubber mat you are preventing the build up of charge in the first place. Also if the nail in the wall is earth grounded then its also never allowing any voltage to build up inside your body.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Ok so now you've successfully scared any aspiring home builder away from the task. Well done. I'm out.

[olds442]

Ok so now you've successfully scared any aspiring home builder away from the task. Well done. I'm out.

Can you honestly re read what I said, specifically the part where i say "Install the PSU first and plug it so the case is grounded" because that is literally all you need to do. Perhaps that is a little complicated, however I can't comment on that.

Do you just leave when anyone counters your argument or provides and facts in the form of external links? I'm sorry, I was just trying to inform people how to handle there expensive computer parts that they have spent their hard earned money on.

Lets go over this again,

step 1: Install power supply (don't connect anything just screw it into the case)
step 2: Plug it in

Congratulations, you have now grounded your case and you can now safely handle all those delicate components by paying the low price of exactly 0$! Remember to touch the case about every 5 minutes or so to discharge any potential static electricity.

Method number 2:

step 1: Buy an anti static wrist strap
step 2: Connect it to any metal part of the case

Congratulations, you have now made the case the same potential as you just by connecting a wrist strap to it! The reason this works and not just touching an ungrounded case is because the wrist strap is always touching you and is always connected to the case, so the case doesn't have to hold any charge and thus is always connected to you and has the same potential.



And if somehow that was all too complicated here is a great video on how to build a PC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbDiSMQ_L_k

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Can you honestly re read what I said, specifically the part where i say "Install the PSU first and plug it so the case is grounded" because that is literally all you need to do. Perhaps that is a little complicated, however I can't comment on that.

Do you just leave when anyone counters your argument or provides and facts in the form of external links? I'm sorry, I was just trying to inform people how to handle there expensive computer parts that they have spent their hard earned money on.

Lets go over this again,

step 1: Install power supply (don't connect anything just screw it into the case)
step 2: Plug it in

Congratulations, you have now grounded your case and you can now safely handle all those delicate components by paying the low price of exactly 0$! Remember to touch the case about every 5 minutes or so to discharge any potential static electricity.

Method number 2:

step 1: Buy an anti static wrist strap
step 2: Connect it to any metal part of the case

Congratulations, you have now made the case the same potential as you just by connecting a wrist strap to it! The reason this works and not just touching an ungrounded case is because the wrist strap is always touching you and is always connected to the case, so the case doesn't have to hold any charge and thus is always connected to you and has the same potential.



And if somehow that was all too complicated here is a great video on how to build a PC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbDiSMQ_L_k

The wrist wrap doesn't differ in any way from holding the case with your left hand while installing the component with your right. But all this complication now FOR SURE put off the timid users that perhaps otherwise would have had the courage to try an install themselves.

[olds442]

The wrist wrap doesn't differ in any way from holding the case with your left hand while installing the component with your right. But all this complication now FOR SURE put off the timid users that perhaps otherwise would have had the courage to try an install themselves.

So you're going to install say, a motherboard one handed? I would like to see that!

Also if someone is discouraged that easy then they shouldn't have attempted in the first place. The fact remains what you said in your first post was incorrect and could have lead to people destroying the parts, and what is more discouraging? Reading about how not to break your stuff or actually breaking it? Its important with first time builders to understand how to make sure they don't blow up there components.

Why am I so passionate about this? Because I've destroyed a motherboard by not properly grounding myself and thinking that just touching the case that isn't grounded would be ok, needless to say when I felt the static shock a great deal of money was lost (and being 13 at the time of that incident, yes 150$ is quite of bit of money). So yes Ripley, better discourage the would be builder than have him waste 50, 100, maybe even 500 dollars.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So you're going to install say, a motherboard one handed? I would like to see that!

Very simple. You need to contact the case only for the moment your component touches the case for the first time. This ensures that if any electricity is going to flow anywhere it's going to flow through your hand.

Your rant about timid people shouldn't be attempting to self build in the first place is pretty arrogant and egoist. You're ready to condemn them to an eternal cycle of buying branded computers and paying extra for nothing.

If you managed to fry your motherboard it's nothing but a classic case of bad luck. In all my history of doing self builds I've never used any ESD safety gear and I've never managed to kill a component so far. If your case is not grounded the electricity has nowhere to go. If your case is grounded, touching the case will dissipate any potential your body may have.

Actually by grounding your case you create the environment needed for ESD. If your PSU is plugged to the wall, any static electricity in your body is going to be instantly drained on first contact with the case. That is when you kill your components. If there's no ground available the static won't zap anything since the current literally has nowhere to go.

[olds442]

But you can't just touch the case, its not a capacitor, it can't hold a charge. Also lets say you're charged up to 5kv through and you're messing with your PC. Nothing will happen because 5kv is not enough spark to create and air gap. If your PC is grounded you can touch the case and instantly discharge all of this. But if you don't discharge this and it keeps growing higher and higher until about 25kv-30kv when you create a spark through the air. Now lets get something out of the way, there doesn't need to be a direct path to ground to cause current to flow (this is actually called self capacitance and is essentially a small capacitance between everything and ground, like I said, its very small but still there) as thus, you will be putting 25kV or so across ICs, transistors, and capacitors all of which have a voltage tolerance (and this is around 1.5v for a CPU or 12v for a capacitor onboard). Putting that much voltage accrossed them breaks down the thin electrolite layer in capacitors and even smaller oxide layer in MOSFETs which will destroy them.


If you feel I am wrong, here is an engineering discussion board topic on the same thing (I am not the thread starter, user name on said board is oddball)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/static-electricity-do-you-need-a-path-to-ground/

[MrRiplEy[H]]

But you can't just touch the case, its not a capacitor, it can't hold a charge. Also lets say you're charged up to 5kv through and you're messing with your PC. Nothing will happen because 5kv is not enough spark to create and air gap. If your PC is grounded you can touch the case and instantly discharge all of this. But if you don't discharge this and it keeps growing higher and higher until about 25kv-30kv when you create a spark through the air. Now lets get something out of the way, there doesn't need to be a direct path to ground to cause current to flow (this is actually called self capacitance and is essentially a small capacitance between everything and ground, like I said, its very small but still there) as thus, you will be putting 25kV or so across ICs, transistors, and capacitors all of which have a voltage tolerance (and this is around 1.5v for a CPU or 12v for a capacitor onboard). Putting that much voltage accrossed them breaks down the thin electrolite layer in capacitors and even smaller oxide layer in MOSFETs which will destroy them.


If you feel I am wrong, here is an engineering discussion board topic on the same thing (I am not the thread starter, user name on said board is oddball)
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/static-electricity-do-you-need-a-path-to-ground/

If touching the case does nothing, then your wrist band does nothing either. You need to have an ESD mat connected to ground and the wrist band must be connected to it to ground you. So with the wrist band you've done nothing but bought yourself a false sense of confidence.


I have handled literally hundreds of components with no problems in the past. This is why I can't agree with your worries. The only time I'd be worried is if your house has extremely low air humidity, you wear extremely electric (plastic or wool) clothes or you've just finished stroking your cat in your lap Some vinyl flooring also create very nasty voltages. One of my customers has a meeting room that creates voltages high enough to create loud snaps and arcs whenever I touch a (charging) laptop in the room. Even my anti static work shoes did nothing to prevent this, probably due to the whole flooring being the problem.

[olds442]

.
1: The wrist strap is ALWAYS connected to the case, even though you're not discharging the static you're making the ground plane the same potential.
2: ESD mats are to prevent electrostatic build up, not stop it from discharging. To stop discharges you need a faraday cage, aka anti static bag that all of your parts come out of the box with.


Its very possible you could work on PCs all your life and with no safety for ESD and not damage one part. Its also possible to go in a swimming pool during a lightning storm and never get hit by lightning.

[olds442]

also here is a quote from a thread a linked.


'In the early days when things were really sensitive to static, all of this was mandatory work practice. Now, most circuitry contained on boards has some anti-static protection built in. It's a good idea to not to challenge Murphy. The first static zap will probably not destroy a device, nor maybe the second one, but it can weaken components to cause future mysterious failures, something you don't need.
Following these practices, I've yet to zap something into oblivion.'

[MrRiplEy[H]]

also here is a quote from a thread a linked.


'In the early days when things were really sensitive to static, all of this was mandatory work practice. Now, most circuitry contained on boards has some anti-static protection built in. It's a good idea to not to challenge Murphy. The first static zap will probably not destroy a device, nor maybe the second one, but it can weaken components to cause future mysterious failures, something you don't need.
Following these practices, I've yet to zap something into oblivion.'

If you seriously think that any home builder is going to invest in ESD mats etc. you're way off the mark. 99% of the home builders never use any ESD gear and they manage to do their builds just fine. Some people get seriously unlucky, some win in lottery.

[ebfd11]

Ripley I see what OLDS is saying about plugging it in ..he is using the ground from the 3 prong to act as a anti static wrist strap.. which in theory makes sense but I still will go the route of using a 12 dollar floor mat to build on.. then i plug in all connections to power starting with the 24 pin them 8 pin then vid card ..so on so forth. I always plug in the HD last.. then plug in the PSU to the wall outlet.

I think you and I have the same building sense and I am glad you posted this for the novice builders. I learned from trial and error, with alot of error.

LawnDart

[olds442]

Ripley, that quote I posted literally says the opposite of what you just said. Let me paraphrase, As time goes on, chips have more ESD protection and thus you need to worry about ESD less.


Unless I'm away from my home, I too use an ESD mat that way when working on multiple projects I'm always 100% safe.


EDIT: I'm having a really hard time using the new forum, seems it messes up quotes a lot.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Ripley I see what OLDS is saying about plugging it in ..he is using the ground from the 3 prong to act as a anti static wrist strap.. which in theory makes sense but I still will go the route of using a 12 dollar floor mat to build on.. then i plug in all connections to power starting with the 24 pin them 8 pin then vid card ..so on so forth. I always plug in the HD last.. then plug in the PSU to the wall outlet.

I think you and I have the same building sense and I am glad you posted this for the novice builders. I learned from trial and error, with alot of error.

LawnDart

The ESD mat is useless unless you ground it. Where do you ground it at your home?