Author Topic: Jagdpanther  (Read 4795 times)

Offline save

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2015, 04:16:51 AM »
Tank-destroyers are meant for first hit, not slugging it out with a MBT on equal terms.

If you get hit by an unknown enemy with a high-velocity gun, bad things happen to the crew inside it, even if it did not penetrate.

Finding target for the gunner is harder, bruises and general confusion etc. The ambushing party are given the opportunity to hit target again before getting spotted.
Late German tank-destroyers are a bit of exception to the hit and run  tactics of the tank-destroyers, with their good frontal armour, but should limit themselves to long range ambush, as range decreases the angle of opportunity to hit the side armour.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 04:46:55 AM by save »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2015, 05:35:31 PM »
you guys do know there is a difference in game to how ricochets and "hit" are treated, right?  ricochets (you hit the tank and the round bounces off) do absolutely nothing to the tank; "hits" weaken amour; damage something; or kill the tank. You can however, get a million legit "hits" on a GV and not kill it (because you are hitting the tread or a none vital component).

Actually, as I have stated previously, I do *not* know this, but can only speculate.  If you have a link to HTC (not player) material describing how they have implemented GV damage, I would appreciate you listing that link. 

Offline FBKampfer

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2015, 09:08:00 PM »
Are you aware of how scientific work is done? If so, you would put more faith in your own (and others) observations and extrapolations.

However, I have asked Pyro via PM. We'll see what he has to say, and if he grants me leave to share it.
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Offline bangsbox

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2015, 09:23:49 PM »
HiTech has previously said ricochets do nothing to GVs a long time ago.

Offline USRanger

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 11:08:24 PM »
Are you aware of how scientific work is done? If so, you would put more faith in your own (and others) observations and extrapolations.

However, I have asked Pyro via PM. We'll see what he has to say, and if he grants me leave to share it.

I think you'll be waiting awhile for Pyro to answer.  :D
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2015, 12:02:44 PM »
HiTech has previously said ricochets do nothing to GVs a long time ago.

No link huh?  I figured as much. 

MH

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2015, 05:28:46 PM »
No link huh?  I figured as much. 

MH

HTC has said outright that armor does NOT have hit points. Your search-fu is weak. 

Case in point: grab a 75mm M4, sit at 600 yards in front of a Tiger and blast away at the same spot in the front armor.  You will NOT defeat it.  Some of this stuff can be tested on your own.

In the mean time I encourage you to search and search some more for the info some of us are mentioning. Pyro, Hitech, and I believe Skuzzy have all commented on this.
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2015, 08:20:10 PM »
HTC has said outright that armor does NOT have hit points. Your search-fu is weak. 

Case in point: grab a 75mm M4, sit at 600 yards in front of a Tiger and blast away at the same spot in the front armor.  You will NOT defeat it.  Some of this stuff can be tested on your own.

In the mean time I encourage you to search and search some more for the info some of us are mentioning. Pyro, Hitech, and I believe Skuzzy have all commented on this.

LOL; I have better things to do with my time.  It is not my job to prove the validity of other posters' claims.  If they want to be believed, provide the link; otherwise accept my scepticism. 

MH

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2015, 08:27:02 PM »
LOL; I have better things to do with my time.  It is not my job to prove the validity of other posters' claims.  If they want to be believed, provide the link; otherwise accept my scepticism. 

MH

Test out your theory, Mr. Wizard.

then.... read through this.  Hitech says it outright:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,146227.msg1614712.html#msg1614712

« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 08:36:27 PM by SmokinLoon »
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2015, 08:41:56 PM »
<snip>
then.... read through this.  Hitech says it outright:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,146227.msg1614712.html#msg1614712

In the link you reference, Hitech says is that if no penetration, then no damage.  However, in that link he does *not* say that a penetration necessarily results in an engine hit, or a turret hit, or total destruction (which is what the shooter sees as "damage").  He does say that "The GV model is the most complex and will produce the most random results do to it's detail".  Taken all together, then, this implies that damage short of those 3 drastic results may occur, which would appear to be the equivalent of cumulative damage.  Of course, this link is from 10 years ago (was that AH-1?), and things may have changed since. 

I do however give you credit for trying, by providing the link to a statement by HTC, and not by a player. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 08:49:01 PM by TDeacon »

Offline FBKampfer

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2015, 09:07:14 PM »
We never said there wasn't cumulative damage to components upon penetration. We only said that armor isn't weakened by non penetrating hits, which is what you initially asserted.
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Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2015, 09:24:38 PM »
We never said there wasn't cumulative damage to components upon penetration. We only said that armor isn't weakened by non penetrating hits, which is what you initially asserted.

Well, not really.  I initially asserted that it *seemed* like armor could be gradually weakening from repeated hits, but that I *wasn't sure*, and that there could be other explanations for my observations, such as "lucky impact point".    You have now provided a link where HTC says that (for AH over 10 years ago) repeated non-penetrating hits won't cause damage. 

However, after overcoming my instinctive reaction to hit the ball back over the net (tennis analogy), I do concede that the referenced statement by Hitech makes it more likely that armor also isn't weakened in the present day version of AH-2.  So you have achieved something here.  Of course, there is still the possibility that his intended meaning was that (1) non-fatal *penetrating* hits could occur, and that (2) these hits could weaken armor via holes/cracks, and that (3) this weakened armor would then be less resistant to further hits.  He does say the GV damage model is "complex".  So a statement by HTC about cumulative weakening of armor, per se, would still be useful. 

As I implied previously, however, from a game play standpoint, this isn't really critical.  My initial advice to reposition the Jagdpanther once the enemy gets your range is still valid, regardless of whether the risk is due to weakening of the armor, or due to additional chances for a lucky hit. 

« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 10:04:32 PM by TDeacon »

Offline TDeacon

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Re: Jagdpanther
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2015, 12:52:35 PM »
Test out your theory, Mr. Wizard.
<snip>

You finally provoked me into doing this. 

Try this:  Offline, put out a Jagdpanther, and up in a Panther.  Get out directly in front of the Jagdpanther at about 400 yards.  Fire some test shots at the glacis plate (avoiding vision blocks etc.).  Note where the hit sprite occurs, as at that short range the shell will hit to the right of the reticle aim point, apparently due to the offset between the gun and the gunsight.  Anyway, at 400 yards I observed a consistent pattern of target destruction on the second non-ricocheting hit.  At 800 yards it takes 3 such hits to destroy the Jagdpanther. 

Whether this indicates cumulative internal damage, cumulative glacis plate damage, or both, I can't say.    But again, either way, once one has been hit, it would be prudent to move the Jagdpanther per my original advice. 

Additional thought:  It would be tactically useful if the player could detect such cumulative damage, and retire the expensive perk GV to the rear if it became excessive.  My rule of thumb has just been to consider the GV compromised if it has been hit several times. 
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 12:54:44 PM by TDeacon »