Author Topic: AH book club  (Read 7072 times)

Offline Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8815
Re: AH book club
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2015, 12:36:37 AM »
For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks. The question 'what if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union' is ridiculous, giving the 'Uebermenschen' 'Lebensraum' was his whole thing. "What if everything about the Nazi's policies were completely different?"
"What if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union?" is about as intellectually stimulating a question as "What if Hitler had just gone to art school?"

The First and the Last by Adolf Galland is an interesting read. Gives you an impression of how hopeless the air war was for the Luftwaffe, and a unique perspective from the commander of the Jagdwaffe.
Indeed. Galland's book is quite illuminating on the high command's failure to understand the reality of the war.

As for the other bits, Hitler's policies and decisions from the start doomed Germany. While I'd like to credit him with the success of turning the economy around, one must remember that it was done with the pretext of inevitably going to war. Sure, he gained ground in world power (both literally and figuratively) with the annexation of Austria and Czechoslovakia as well as the signing of the Molotov/Ribbentrop Pact, the invasion of Poland was a gross miscalculation. Hitler did not actually expect a declaration of war. His early successes and the quick victories over the Belgians, French and Norway were the exception - not the rule. Hitler's decisions both before and during the war sapped Germany of men and material needed to fight effectively in the long term. The fighter arm was too weak for a majority of the war. Too few men were sent into fighter squadrons and the squadrons themselves were too few in number. Only after America began bombing German cities did Hitler and Goering begin to give the idea of a defensive air war any consideration. What was done was too little too late. Too many assets were tied up in special projects, the V-1, V-2, Me-163, and Ar-234 projects were all useless in actuality, but Hitler and Goering dedicated resources to them while neglecting the need for a new piston engined fighter to replace the 109 and 190 as advancements to these airframes were inadequate. Also remember that The Me-262 production was also delayed because oh Hitler's wanting to use it as a Blitz bomber.

Also, very few people ever consider the resources wrapped up in the execution of the Holocaust. Granted, it's a small consideration compared to the lives of those murdered, but between the men posted to running the camps and the prisoners themselves, is a significant group of men able to fight and serve. Hitler's attempt to strengthen Germany via "racial purity" actually helped to cripple it. One of Germany's greatest assets, the Jewish community was seen by him as worthless, in every sense of the word. This attitude is both stupid and tragic.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline JVboob

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 723
Re: AH book club
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2015, 02:43:24 AM »
If Hitler wanted the "eliminate" the Jews he should have made them soldiers. In the sense that The U.S held blacks way back when or the Russians used their Convicts. Hilter could have assigned them the suicide missions and accomplished somthing while still "exterminating" them. Then the resources used to house torture and kill the jews could have been used elsewhere.

Instead of all the experiments he had done which I assume a ton of resources were dumped there uselessly like with the V1 V2 programs ect. If he would have focused on destroying his enemy, defending his newly aquired land, and winning a war he would have gotten farther. Ultimately to lose but still I think he would have made more progress. And the move on the USSR surely didnt help any.
"Sighhhhhhhhhh, office closed do to ice for a day, And I miss a thread like this.."HiTech
Armed N Hammered 2002-2003
JG44 Night Hawks/JV44 Butcher Birds 2003-2009
49th Fighter Group fightn' 49ers Feb2012-present
138th FW Tulsa, OK 2009-2015

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9348
Re: AH book club
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2015, 07:25:06 AM »
For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks.


Agreed.

- oldman

Offline Scherf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3409
Re: AH book club
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2015, 07:52:05 AM »
OK, well, I guess we're done here.

Back to threads about baking and vacuum cleaners.
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: AH book club
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2015, 08:49:59 AM »
"If grandma had a dick, she'd be grandpa"

All of these silly 'what if the Germans would have won' scenarios hinge on Germany's leadership doing everything exactly right throughout the whole war, and the Allies making all of the same mistakes (or more).
What if France hadn't let Germany remilitarize the Rheinland?
What if Stalin hadn't gutted the Soviet military leadership in the late 30s?
What if Ribbentrop and Molotov hadn't signed the non-aggression pact in 1939?
What if France was prepared for the war and invaded Germany while the latter was bogged down in Poland?
What if France hadn't invested all of those resources in the Maginot line and hadn't fallen for the Werhmacht's outmaneuvering and diversions?

For every scenario where Germany wins, there are like four where WWII lasts two weeks. The question 'what if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union' is ridiculous, giving the 'Uebermenschen' 'Lebensraum' was his whole thing. "What if everything about the Nazi's policies were completely different?"
"What if Hitler hadn't invaded the Soviet Union?" is about as intellectually stimulating a question as "What if Hitler had just gone to art school?"

The First and the Last by Adolf Galland is an interesting read. Gives you an impression of how hopeless the air war was for the Luftwaffe, and a unique perspective from the commander of the Jagdwaffe.
Historians look at things differently and like to run what-if's for curiously sake and for literary fun.  Jeezus you and Rufleek need to calm down.  No body is trying to take Americas win away, lmao.   
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 08:51:31 AM by Changeup »
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: AH book club
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2015, 10:08:16 AM »

Germany was doomed to lose World War II from the start. Period.


On one hand if you look at the manufacturing stand point - Germany was in no position to start a war. On the other hand, Germany shouldn't of taken France considering france had more planes, troops and tanks that were higher quality then the Germans.

Fact is all Germany had to do was stay out of Russia and ignore Japan, Hitler would of had his little thousand year Reich. United states was not interested in the war, in fact in 1940 the public opinion was mostly opposed to the european "problem".
Another interesting fact is France had over 40 divisions on Germany's boarder and Germany only had two divisions defending it; the french could of squashed Germany by 1941.

hypothetical situations are a great way to read more in depth; I have 80% historical facts for my books, however there is nothing wrong with a little "What If" scenarios now and then; the out come of the war has already been decided.

Pick up a Tom Clancy book now and then, he has some good writing :)
JG 52

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9348
Re: AH book club
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2015, 11:05:11 AM »
OK, well, I guess we're done here.

Back to threads about baking and vacuum cleaners.


Now don't get all dejected.  Our point was that the "what if" discussions always seem to focus on "what if Germany had done one more thing right."  You can have at least as much fun going the other way.

- oldman

Offline Changeup

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5688
      • Das Muppets
Re: AH book club
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2015, 11:50:22 AM »

Now don't get all dejected.  Our point was that the "what if" discussions always seem to focus on "what if Germany had done one more thing right."  You can have at least as much fun going the other way.

- oldman

Not really.  How much fun is hypothesizing the loss of the winner when the winner was right?  That's not fun.

Almost all of the what ifs are really done to remind folks how close the world was to a different outcome and/or how that would have looked.  None of it is arguable really because it's just people's opinions. 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 11:52:16 AM by Changeup »
"Such is the nature of war.  By protecting others, you save yourself."

"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered.  Those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.  Thus, the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win." - Morihei Ueshiba

Offline hcrana

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
      • http://www.menacingferrets.com
Re: AH book club
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2015, 12:28:17 PM »
This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle."  A worthwhile read...

From WikiPedia:

Quote
The Man in the High Castle (1962) is an alternate history novel by American writer Philip K. Dick. The novel is set in 1962, fifteen years after the end of a fictional longer Second World War (1939–1947). It concerns intrigues between the victorious Axis Powers—Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany—as they rule over the former U.S., as well as daily life under the resulting totalitarian Fascist and imperialistic rule. Reported inspirations for the work include Ward Moore's alternate Civil War history, Bring the Jubilee (1953), various classic World War II histories, and the I Ching (which is referenced in the novel). The novel includes the construction of a novella within the novel that constitutes an alternate history within this alternate history (wherein the Allied Powers defeat the Axis Powers, though in a manner distinct from this actual historical outcome).
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 12:31:08 PM by hcrana »
Herr Doktor Professor Kolonel H.C. Rana
Kommanding Ossifer, The Menacing Ferrets
ILLEGITIMATVS NON CARBORVNDVM EST

Offline Mister Fork

  • AvA Staff Member
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7255
Re: AH book club
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2015, 01:04:23 PM »
James Bradley's Fly Boys (ISBN-13: 978-0316159432) is an awesome read.  Details a story of several pilots during WWII.  Details of the brutality American aircrew POW's suffered was very 'informative' and shocking.  Still, one of the most memorable books I've read in a while and one that I would not hesitate to read again.

I'm surprised they haven't made a movie out of it yet....
"Games are meant to be fun and fair but fighting a war is neither." - HiTech

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9348
Re: AH book club
« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2015, 03:01:42 PM »
I'm surprised they haven't made a movie out of it yet....


No one really wants to see Japanese officers eating American corpses.

I hope.

- oldman

Offline Vinkman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: AH book club
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2015, 04:09:23 PM »
I've read..

Attack of the Airacobras: Soviet Aces, American P-39s, and the Air War Against Germany (Modern War Studies)- by Dmitriy Loza and James F. Gebhardt
Cobra!: The Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946 (Schiffer Military History Book) -  by Birch Matthews
The Blond Knight of Germany: A biography of Erich Hartmann - by Raymond Toliver and Trevor Constable
To Fly and Fight: Memoirs of a Triple Ace - by Clarence E. Anderson and Joseph P. Hamelin
The First and the Last - By Adolf Galland
My Logbook: Reminiscences 1938-2006 - by Gunther Rall
Nanette: Her Pilot's Love Story - by Edwards Park
Fighter Combat - by Shaw

Who is John Galt?

Offline RufusLeaking

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1056
Re: AH book club
« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2015, 04:38:10 PM »
Historians look at things differently and like to run what-if's for curiously sake and for literary fun.  Jeezus you and Rufleek need to calm down.  No body is trying to take Americas win away, lmao.

I’m calm. I don't try to win the forums, anymore.

I actually enjoy alternate history discussions intellectually. I just wanted to get out front of all the Nazi nostalgia. The trite arguments point to the jet engine, or the ballistic missile. This stuff may have extended the war, but never would have won it. Few people talk about how the Nazis did not go to a full war economy until it was too late. Few mention radar, sonar (ASDIC for you Brits,) Liberty ships, code breaking, high octane aviation fuel or the myriad advantages of the Allies.

This is my personal peeve. I am not saying that anyone here is endorsing anything evil.

The reason I included Dunnigan’s book is that it has many stats that make a compelling argument for the inevitability of defeat as of Sept 1, 1939. For example, the US manufactured 50+% of all planes during the World War 2. Dunnigan was a prolific game designer (and owner?) of SPI, a paper and counter wargame company in the 1970s.

This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle."  A worthwhile read...


I saw this a while back when searching for 'alternate history' books.

GameID: RufLeak
Claim Jumpers

Offline Zoney

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6503
Re: AH book club
« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2015, 04:46:50 PM »
This debate reminds me of a sci-fi novel by the great Philip K. Dick called "The Man in the High Castle."  A worthwhile read...

From WikiPedia:

I've read it, not his best IMO but very enjoyable none the less.
Wag more, bark less.

Offline Flench

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3104
Re: AH book club
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2015, 05:20:04 PM »
Well have to check it out . There is a very good read about a machine gunner in Vietnam called Guns Up by Johnnie M. Clark you should check out .
Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .
Army of Muppets-"Failure is impossible"-Death before dishonor
         Lead follow or get out of the way  !!