AH book club

[BuckShot]

I think just about everyone who has US ancestors going back that far has somebody KIA or DWRIA in the Civil War.

I've always been utterly baffled by southerners' obsession with the Civil War. Granted it was a brutal, very personal war, but even Europe seems to have mostly forgiven Germany for WWII, and that's still within living memory.

At a construction site near the River Nuess in NC, a local pointed to stretch of land across the river and said "that's where YOU killed a bunch of our boys back in the war."

Thought a time travel joke was in order but changed the subject instead.

[Butcher]

I think just about everyone who has US ancestors going back that far has somebody KIA or DWRIA in the Civil War.

I've always been utterly baffled by southerners' obsession with the Civil War. Granted it was a brutal, very personal war, but even Europe seems to have mostly forgiven Germany for WWII, and that's still within living memory.

Problem is in the south, it was very personal because your neighbor might be fighting for the union, while you are fighting for the confeds. After the war the southerners were literally treated as garbage; land was taken from them and people were still being killed after the war. "The south shall Rise again" won't likely ever happen, people here still believe the civil war was unjust.
Its funny however, people today really Don't even know what started the civil war, let alone care about it - it usually turns "Racist" real quick as the southerners tend to blame all the problems on the African Americans.
Reality is they simply have no clue of the history that unfolded that started the war. Believe it or not, most have a "deep" hatred for the government and the northerners, and I happen to live around these wack-o's.

Civil war like the Vietnam war is something I tend to shy away from in reading, things get to personal and there are many Vietnam Vets displeased with what happened, along with how they were treated. For me its simply to "political" to even bother trying to research it.

[hcrana]

Gunter Grass died last night...

www.theguardian.com/books/2015/apr/13/gunter-grass-german-nobel-laureate-dies-aged-87

Grass was born in the Free City of Danzig – now Gdansk – in 1927, “almost late enough”, as he said, to avoid involvement with the Nazi regime. Conscripted into the army in 1944 at the age of 16, he served as a tank gunner in the Waffen SS, bringing accusations of betrayal, hypocrisy and opportunism when he wrote about it in his 2006 autobiography, Peeling the Onion.

If you haven't read The Tin Drum, I recommend it; a really great WW2 novel.

[PR3D4TOR]

Germany was doomed to lose World War II from the start. Period.

The US had 30% of the worlds manufacturing capacity, even at the end of the Great Depression. It is an odd but too common fantasy to have the Nazis win the war. It would have never happened.

The US wasn't in the war in Europe for the first three years. Declaring war on America was one of Hitlers biggest blunders. Had he not, America would in all likelihood been well satisfied with going after Japan and ignoring the European war.

[Ack-Ack]

The US wasn't in the war in Europe for the first three years. Declaring war on America was one of Hitlers biggest blunders. Had he not, America would in all likelihood been well satisfied with going after Japan and ignoring the European war.

Due to us supplying the British, Germany would have probably declared war on the US as we were clearly violating our neutrality by supplying the British.  If you had read your history, we were already at a "low level" war with Germany as we were actively escorting convoys before war was declared and had already lost a few US ships on convoy duty.

[PR3D4TOR]

And Germany was actively trying not to engage US naval forces even if they were taking fire from USN ships, to the point of falsifying the logbooks of U-552 after the USS Reuben James incident. After Pearl Harbour there was a strong thirst of revenge among the American public and the Japanese indeed "had woken up a sleeping giant" but it was aimed at the Japanese not Germans. The deceleration of war by congress was against Japan not Germany. If Roosevelt wanted to declare war on Germany he might have had serious opposition. During that time there was a strong sentiment among the US public not to enter another war in Europe. By in effect declaring the North Atlantic an American lake Roosevelt could help the British convoys under the guise of protecting American shipping. He was skirting the very edge of what he was allowed to do by congress and before Pearl Harbor, a couple of congressmen were trying to have Roosevelt impeached. If the US were only fighting the Japanese Empire, supplies to the European Allies and the USSR would have dwindled.

FDR was trying a very straight forward copy of the game that brought America into WWI - provoke the Germans into provoking America into getting into a war with them. However, until December 1941 Germany did not want to play.

[Masherbrum]

Any of you men like reading about Vietnam , Seems I'm hooked on those mostly . Anyone know of a good read on this .

Legend - Eric Blehm

You'll thank me for reading it.   

[Flench]

Legend - Eric Blehm

You'll thank me for reading it.   

Cool , well look for it today . Got to go by the library today anyway .

[RufusLeaking]

FDR was trying a very straight forward copy of the game that brought America into WWI - provoke the Germans into provoking America into getting into a war with them. However, until December 1941 Germany did not want to play.

I agree on this point.

Alternate history is fun topic, especially with a few beers and rationale debaters.

But, in the end, the certainty of the failure of Fascism in WW2 is clear.

First and foremost is logistics. In population, production, and resources (especially oil,) the Axis were deficient. Amateurs talk of tactics. Professionals talk of logistics.

Second, people get hung up on the illusion of invincibility. Early victories were over weaker adversaries: Denmark, Norway, Belgium, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, France, Yugoslavia and Greece. France was not weaker on paper, but was not prepared or motivated to hold out. These early successes are as much about being ready and willing versus being able.

After other combatants mobilized, and figured out the blitzkrieg, it was a war of attrition the Fascists could not win, regardless of hair color and eye color.

Finally, the US was going to get into the war eventually. Conscription was signed into law in September 1940, after the fall of France. The USN escorting convoys as far as Iceland by April 1941. The fleet move to Pearl Harbor and movement of aircraft to the Pacific was a sign of things to come.

It is not just Germany and Japan. History is littered with those who doubted the American capacity for belligerence. From the outside, the US has often seen as a bunch of decadent hedonists. More foreign tourists need to come to Texas.

Some statistics, courtesy of www.world-war-2.info/statistics/

Oil production in tons:

Germany
1939 – 8 million
1942 – 7.7 million
1943 – 8.9 million
1944 – 6.4 million

US
1942 – 184 million
1943 – 200 million
1944 – 223 million

Total for WW2
Aircraft – World – 542,000
Aircraft – US – 283,000
52% US

Total for WW2
Vehicles – World – 5.1 million
Vehicles – US – 2.47 million
48% US

[Oldman731]

But, in the end, the certainty of the failure of Fascism in WW2 is clear.

Heard this story somewhere.  Pardon me if I paraphrase it:

In 1944 the air raid sirens sounded in Berlin.  As by what was now habit, the locals quickly descended into the shelter.  The doors were closed and secured.  Soon, the explosions could be heard overhead.  The occupants knew they would be there for hours.

To pass the time, a man who had been a geography professor found a map of the world, posted it on the shelter wall, and began a lecture.

"This large orange area is the United States of America," he said.  "And these tan-colored shapes are Canada and England and Australia and the other Commonwealth nations."

The audience, many of whom had never had such an opportunity, watched closely.

"Finally," said the professor, "this enormous red area is the Soviet Union."

He paused.

"And here," he said, "this small green area, this is the Fatherland."

The explosions continued, muffled by the concrete.  Inside the shelter there was absolute silence.  Finally, an older man glanced around himself, looked at the professor, and in a soft and tentative voice said:

"Has anyone told the Fuehrer?"

- oldman

[hcrana]

Hitler's dream of a united Europe under a preeminent Germany rid of Jews has pretty much come to pass.  Are you sure the good guys won?

[Changeup]

Hitler's dream of a united Europe under a preeminent Germany rid of Jews has pretty much come to pass.  Are you sure the good guys won?

I don't think Hitler had a neutered, politically and militarily, Germany in mind.  I would call your interpretation of current geopolitics interesting at best sir.  Ya, the good guys won

[PR3D4TOR]

Rufus, the logistics capabilities of America is only relevant if America is in a war with Germany rather than being preoccupied with its own war with Japan. My whole argument is based on the possibility of Germany avoiding a war with America, at least until the British were starved into submission in 1942 (Churchill's greatest fear).

[Ratsy]

After the war the southerners were literally treated as garbage; land was taken from them and people were still being killed after the war.

I know this thread has probably marched on but I wanted to comment.  The pain of the killing (on both sides) has subsided over time.  The restoration process inflicted by the North after the war - administrated by Yankee political favorites, hacks, and opportunists - completely wrecked what was left of the economy of the South.  The ramifications of that have transcended the initial pain from loss of life and can still be seen and felt in some economic sectors today.  Most folks can get over the loss of a loved one over time...but loss of livelihood or land is something not easily forgiven, or forgotten.

Even today, some folks look suspiciously at northern investment capital moving south.  They can perceive it as another round of Carpetbagging.

Civil War discussions by Yankees visiting the south most likely won't end well.

 

 

 

[Changeup]

I know this thread has probably marched on but I wanted to comment.  The pain of the killing (on both sides) has subsided over time.  The restoration process inflicted by the North after the war - administrated by Yankee political favorites, hacks, and opportunists - completely wrecked what was left of the economy of the South.  The ramifications of that have transcended the initial pain from loss of life and can still be seen and felt in some economic sectors today.  Most folks can get over the loss of a loved one over time...but loss of livelihood or land is something not easily forgiven, or forgotten.

Even today, some folks look suspiciously at northern investment capital moving south.  They can perceive it as another round of Carpetbagging.

Civil War discussions by Yankees visiting the south most likely won't end well.

 

Interesting.  Give some examples of recent investment capital being frowned upon that wasn't requested by a Southern developer or Southern sponsor please.  I would love to see the actual evidence of this so many years post-war.