Author Topic: The remarkable airplane that failed.  (Read 4820 times)

Offline Zimme83

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2015, 05:34:55 PM »
And think about Forth Worth or LAX or any other major airport. Replace all the jets with Dc-3... I not possible to squeeze in >5 times as many planes as it is today. Tha market was completley different in the 40:s with a lot cheaper planes and more expensive tickets. The competition was also nowere near what it is today.
The A380 is prob the biggest airliner we will see. Its too expensive to build the infrastructure needed for bigger plane than the 380.

I would btw love to see u move 520 people from Los Angeles to Frankfurt in DC-3:s and make it cheaper than one 380 does...
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Offline Gman

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2015, 05:43:42 PM »
This discussion can't continue without mentioned the Concorde IMO.  Another great idea and aircraft, that went away for various reasons, many similar to what Rich mentioned in the OP of the thread.

One of those bucket list things in life that is now impossible to ever fulfill.  I hope some day prior to that bucket, that some sort of Concorde analogue becomes available, I WILL be flying on that given any opportunity. 

I've not been aboard the 380 either, I'd love to travel on one in one of their better class tickets/seats.

Offline SysError

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2015, 05:51:12 PM »
The problem with the freight model, besides the fact they havnt built it yet, is they have had to restructure the manufacturing line for the passenger line because they have had so few orders, and so many design issues. In other words they have had to fire people cause they arent selling the thing well and the Freight model not at all.

I am no expert on this, I'm just throwing this out.  It seems to me that the A380 may not be unique in the freight market space. 




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Also saw this.  This, if true,  would make the A380 an interesting platform to look at when trying to figure out costs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#cite_note-SIA.27s_Chew:_A380_pleases-82
Quote
Two months later, Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choong Seng stated the A380 was performing better than both the airline and Airbus had anticipated, burning 20% less fuel per passenger than the airline's 747-400 fleet.[82]
 

« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 08:51:44 PM by SysError »
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2015, 10:52:13 PM »
No the 380 only has very little extra cargo capacity because its floor loading specs are weaker then the 747s. The A380 freighter also has poor density capability as it is designed for lower density (7.9 lbs/cu. ft.) cargo versus the 747F average design density of 9.9 lbs/cu. ft. It will be able to carry less weight per square foot of cargo space and it will cost more money to do so then the 747-4. The doors on the 380 arent efficient for freight and the structure will only support 80% of its load carrying capacity.

The truth is as a freighter its not very well designed. The 747 if you remember was originally designed to be a freighter but lost out to Lockheeds C5 Galaxy, which I still remember walking around and protecting, so its no surprise the 380F version has bombed.


I am no expert on this, I'm just throwing this out.  It seems to me that the A380 may not be unique in the freight market space. 


(Image removed from quote.)

"Giant planes comparison" by Clem Tillier (clem AT tillier.net) - Original Work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 2.5 via Wikimedia Commons - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Giant_planes_comparison.svg#/media/File:Giant_planes_comparison.svg


Also saw this.  This, if true,  would make the A380 an interesting platform to look at when trying to figure out costs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380#cite_note-SIA.27s_Chew:_A380_pleases-82
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Offline flight17

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Offline Bodhi

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2015, 12:34:22 AM »
Rich, I think you are falling victim to conspiracy theories...  It is what it is, but if the CEO is "lying" about the break even point, it is going to be found out.  It just does not behoove him to do so, especially considering the consequences.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2015, 12:34:46 AM »
that A380 was canceled last year.

Interesting.  Any idea why?



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Offline flight17

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2015, 12:39:39 AM »
Interesting.  Any idea why?
Must not have needed it as he already had a 747-400 BBJ and he sold the plane before delivery and the new owner never took delivery. It was going to be furnished from one of the A380 test frames.
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Offline flight17

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2015, 01:59:31 AM »
This thread is full of mis information, so I will try and fix that. It's a long post, but adresses everything I have seen so far.

Efficiency and profitability
First let's talk efficiency in the terms of airlines and their aircraft. To measure aircraft on a level playing field against each other, you must look at their CASM (Cost [per] Available Seat Mile). The lower the CASM, the more efficient the plane is. CASM can be altered in two ways: adding more seats to a given aircraft (spreading the same costs over more tickets) or by reducing the overall cost of operating the flight.

However, the profitability of a route is based off of the RASM (Revenue [per] Available Seat Mile). The higher the RASM, the more money the airline is making. RASM can be increased by a two methods as well: The Airline can cut overall capacity on a route and charge more or they can offer a more premium product and charge a premium price.

Both of these metrics are fluid as the number of tickets sold and for what price on each individual flight will change each.


The 747
The 747 was initially very popular due to its range. At the time it came out, no other plane had the range it had. Many airlines also bought them just for the prestige of having the largest aircraft ever in their fleet. American Airlines was one such airline, but quickly sold them off as they did not make money with them. Many airlines that did not need the capacity of the initial 747's, but instead the range, eventually replaced them with the longer range DC-10's or the L-1011's or even the 747-SP (shorter fuselage/less capacity but the longest range of all three wide bodies).

However, as the 747 progressed through its various variants, so did air travel from the flying public. The travel demands where able to expand and then keep up with the capacities offered with the 747.


747 vs A380
In the 90's Boeing and Airbus both were involved in a joint project that would have created an all new plane larger than the 747. However, Boeing decided that it did not feel the market was big enough for this plane so they backed out of the partnership.

Airbus decided to continue on and eventually they came to the idea of the A380. Meanwhile,  Boeing bet that the market was not big enough to justify a brand new VLA, so they decided to focus on developing an all new medium sized aircraft that would travel near the speed of sound (the Sonic Cruiser). However, the Sonic cruiser did not pan out as planned so they used that research to form the basis idea of the 787. Because they were focusing on a smaller plane, they decided to just upgrade and stretch the 747 in the form of 747-500/600. However, the airlines did not respond to the -500/600 well and eventually they started the 747-8 program as a low cost development that would share commonalities of the 787 to keep them in the VLA segment of aircraft as the A-380 had been officially launched by then.

The 747-8 initially was off to a good start. In fact, Emirates was one of the few airlines that had direct influence on the design of the 747-8 along with Lufthansa and two others. Lufthansa wanted a 747 that had a larger capacity but Emirates wanted a plane that had more range than the 747-400. Boeing decided to go with Lufthansa's request, but also added more range, however it was not enough for Emirates, so they chose the A380 which had a slightly longer range. British Airways was also set to place a large order for the 747-8 as well, but Airbus at the last minute offered a ridiculous lowball offer that swung the decision to Airbus.

Boeing has publicly stated that they have turned down requests for the 747-8 from airlines as they wanted them too cheaply. However, with the 777-9 on the horizon, the 747-8 is all but done.


A-380
For the time being, the A380 is in fact the worlds most efficient airliner, until the Boeing 777-9 enters service. But as pointed out, it is only efficient if it is flying full as the costs to operate a flight does not vary much.

Airlines are running their A380's seating anywhere from 407-538 passengers. The lower capacity layouts are very premium heavy, meaning they have more premium seats than standard economy seats. These seats will net more income however, so a plane carrying fewer passengers could actually make more money than the same plane flying with more seats.

The A380 is a profitable airplane for the airlines that actually need it. However, like the 747's of the past, certain Asian airlines have ordered it only for the prestige as their competitors had already ordered it. 

There are no A380's being flown strictly on domestic routes like some 747's were. All of the 747's used as domestic planes have all been replaced by versions of the 787 or 777.

However, for Airbus, the A380 program is a loss making program. Some people here were talking/asking about it breaking even... Right now, every A380 that rolls off of the production line COSTS Airbus to produce and deliver. In late 2015, the production process will finally reach it's break even point before finally moving ahead into the profit range; meaning the price the airlines are paying for the frames will be more than the price Airbus is paying to make them. ONLY then will the entire program begin to head towards the total break even point of all the production and development costs, which initially was set for 200-250 airframes, then later to 400 and finally it was said they would not disclose the official number, but it was projected to be in the 600-700 airframe range.

The A380 will never break even. Remember how I said earlier about air travel catching up with and then keeping up with the 747 development? Well as of now, it has failed to do so for the A380.

The A380 is a great plane, but it came too soon. The 777-9 is poised to become the best 747-400 replacement on the market. It will offer the same passenger capacity, the largest cargo capacity of any passenger airliner all while burning less fuel and having only two engines to maintain.

The argument of 2 vs 4 engines doesn't always come down to fuel burn. The A340 family is almost as efficient as the 777 on a fuel burn basis and even beats it in some cases, at least so I'm told, but it is the maintenance costs associated with having two more engines that makes it so much more expensive to operate.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2015, 02:57:10 AM »
Must not have needed it as he already had a 747-400 BBJ and he sold the plane before delivery and the new owner never took delivery. It was going to be furnished from one of the A380 test frames.
Thanks!  What a dilemma, which big airplane to keep. Also, great rundown on the big iron complete with facts.  Very informative.



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Offline mbailey

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2015, 05:08:45 AM »
This thread is full of mis information, so I will try and fix that. It's a long post, but adresses everything I have seen so far.

Efficiency and profitability
First let's talk efficiency in the terms of airlines and their aircraft. To measure aircraft on a level playing field against each other, you must look at their CASM (Cost [per] Available Seat Mile). The lower the CASM, the more efficient the plane is. CASM can be altered in two ways: adding more seats to a given aircraft (spreading the same costs over more tickets) or by reducing the overall cost of operating the flight.

However, the profitability of a route is based off of the RASM (Revenue [per] Available Seat Mile). The higher the RASM, the more money the airline is making. RASM can be increased by a two methods as well: The Airline can cut overall capacity on a route and charge more or they can offer a more premium product and charge a premium price.

Both of these metrics are fluid as the number of tickets sold and for what price on each individual flight will change each.


The 747
The 747 was initially very popular due to its range. At the time it came out, no other plane had the range it had. Many airlines also bought them just for the prestige of having the largest aircraft ever in their fleet. American Airlines was one such airline, but quickly sold them off as they did not make money with them. Many airlines that did not need the capacity of the initial 747's, but instead the range, eventually replaced them with the longer range DC-10's or the L-1011's or even the 747-SP (shorter fuselage/less capacity but the longest range of all three wide bodies).

However, as the 747 progressed through its various variants, so did air travel from the flying public. The travel demands where able to expand and then keep up with the capacities offered with the 747.


747 vs A380
In the 90's Boeing and Airbus both were involved in a joint project that would have created an all new plane larger than the 747. However, Boeing decided that it did not feel the market was big enough for this plane so they backed out of the partnership.

Airbus decided to continue on and eventually they came to the idea of the A380. Meanwhile,  Boeing bet that the market was not big enough to justify a brand new VLA, so they decided to focus on developing an all new medium sized aircraft that would travel near the speed of sound (the Sonic Cruiser). However, the Sonic cruiser did not pan out as planned so they used that research to form the basis idea of the 787. Because they were focusing on a smaller plane, they decided to just upgrade and stretch the 747 in the form of 747-500/600. However, the airlines did not respond to the -500/600 well and eventually they started the 747-8 program as a low cost development that would share commonalities of the 787 to keep them in the VLA segment of aircraft as the A-380 had been officially launched by then.

The 747-8 initially was off to a good start. In fact, Emirates was one of the few airlines that had direct influence on the design of the 747-8 along with Lufthansa and two others. Lufthansa wanted a 747 that had a larger capacity but Emirates wanted a plane that had more range than the 747-400. Boeing decided to go with Lufthansa's request, but also added more range, however it was not enough for Emirates, so they chose the A380 which had a slightly longer range. British Airways was also set to place a large order for the 747-8 as well, but Airbus at the last minute offered a ridiculous lowball offer that swung the decision to Airbus.

Boeing has publicly stated that they have turned down requests for the 747-8 from airlines as they wanted them too cheaply. However, with the 777-9 on the horizon, the 747-8 is all but done.


A-380
For the time being, the A380 is in fact the worlds most efficient airliner, until the Boeing 777-9 enters service. But as pointed out, it is only efficient if it is flying full as the costs to operate a flight does not vary much.

Airlines are running their A380's seating anywhere from 407-538 passengers. The lower capacity layouts are very premium heavy, meaning they have more premium seats than standard economy seats. These seats will net more income however, so a plane carrying fewer passengers could actually make more money than the same plane flying with more seats.

The A380 is a profitable airplane for the airlines that actually need it. However, like the 747's of the past, certain Asian airlines have ordered it only for the prestige as their competitors had already ordered it. 

There are no A380's being flown strictly on domestic routes like some 747's were. All of the 747's used as domestic planes have all been replaced by versions of the 787 or 777.

However, for Airbus, the A380 program is a loss making program. Some people here were talking/asking about it breaking even... Right now, every A380 that rolls off of the production line COSTS Airbus to produce and deliver. In late 2015, the production process will finally reach it's break even point before finally moving ahead into the profit range; meaning the price the airlines are paying for the frames will be more than the price Airbus is paying to make them. ONLY then will the entire program begin to head towards the total break even point of all the production and development costs, which initially was set for 200-250 airframes, then later to 400 and finally it was said they would not disclose the official number, but it was projected to be in the 600-700 airframe range.

The A380 will never break even. Remember how I said earlier about air travel catching up with and then keeping up with the 747 development? Well as of now, it has failed to do so for the A380.

The A380 is a great plane, but it came too soon. The 777-9 is poised to become the best 747-400 replacement on the market. It will offer the same passenger capacity, the largest cargo capacity of any passenger airliner all while burning less fuel and having only two engines to maintain.

The argument of 2 vs 4 engines doesn't always come down to fuel burn. The A340 family is almost as efficient as the 777 on a fuel burn basis and even beats it in some cases, at least so I'm told, but it is the maintenance costs associated with having two more engines that makes it so much more expensive to operate.

Good write up. I wouldnt say the thread was full of misinformation tho. I think you just expanded on what was being said....don't take this as a critisism, actually it's the opposite, you took the time to get into better detail, on a subject that  needed it.

Seriously, good write up flight  :aok
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Offline Bodhi

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2015, 09:34:33 AM »
Flight, Nice write up.  However, I don't think that anyone is implying that the break even point means that the program has been paid for.  It just means that going beyond that point means that money comes in as opposed to going out with the airframe.  I amy be simple, but at that point, it is better to keep on producing to ensure that your money coming in can pay off those developmental costs.
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Offline flight17

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2015, 11:08:32 AM »
Flight, Nice write up.  However, I don't think that anyone is implying that the break even point means that the program has been paid for.  It just means that going beyond that point means that money comes in as opposed to going out with the airframe.  I amy be simple, but at that point, it is better to keep on producing to ensure that your money coming in can pay off those developmental costs.

Well just wanted to expand on that subject as there are two break even points with a given program, production and overall break even. Production break even was initially set for just some 200 units.

The 787 is in the same boat as well. This year it will finally reach production break even and it's program break even point is estimated to be around 1,000-1,100 units.

It should be noted that even though Airbus, Boeing or any other manufacturer may sell and individual plane at a loss, they will still make money off of it with the maintenance programs, parts etc over the life of the plane.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2015, 12:04:04 PM »
Quote
Well just wanted to expand on that subject as there are two break even points with a given program, production and overall break even. Production break even was initially set for just some 200 units.
It was well said. No problems.

Quote
The 787 is in the same boat as well. This year it will finally reach production break even and it's program break even point is estimated to be around 1,000-1,100 units.
Far from the same boat I'd say cause there is an actual market for the 787. Its the farthest range passenger plane in History now and the airlines were closely involved in its design. Luckily for both makers the 737-8s and A320 advanced models are selling to fast for production. It gives both some breathing room. The 787 also enjoys a lead over a comparable AB 2 engine due to time wasted over the 380, tho ABs competition is going to be brutal for Boeing in the coming decade and both makers are going to be cutting profits to compete.

Quote
It should be noted that even though Airbus, Boeing or any other manufacturer may sell and individual plane at a loss, they will still make money off of it with the maintenance programs, parts etc over the life of the plane.
Yeah but thats peanuts in comparison and often bargained away in at the selling point. Its not like a car and its a really good time to get bargains on passenger planes right now cause both are dieing to sell and making such durable products.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: The remarkable airplane that failed.
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2015, 09:50:40 AM »
No new orders for passenger versions of either the 747 or A380 last year. http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32384435 It seems the writing is on the wall.
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