Author Topic: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article  (Read 2657 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2015, 07:46:16 AM »
Still the gun looks pretty superfluous in the air to air role. Air to mud it is still a useful weapon though.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2015, 08:25:15 AM »
Still the gun looks pretty superfluous in the air to air role. Air to mud it is still a useful weapon though.

So what do you do when you've used up all your missiles and there's no room to make a clean break, requiring you to fight your way out?
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2015, 08:35:15 AM »
Then I'd rather have a couple more dogfight missiles for the same weight of that gun+ammo. The situation you describe has not happened in the last 40+ years of air combat with American forces.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2015, 10:08:40 AM »
Then I'd rather have a couple more dogfight missiles for the same weight of that gun+ammo. The situation you describe has not happened in the last 40+ years of air combat with American forces.

When was the last time the US engaged an opposing air force that was anything close to parity? About that same 40 years ago. Every other opponent since then the US has FAR outmatched technologically; the last "major" air force the US engaged was the Iraqis, and THAT Air Force was primarily annihilated on the ground during BOTH Gulf Wars.

I can only hope the Air Force brass isn't ANYWHERE near as naive as you're being when planning for potential combat against another air force of equivalent strength to the USAF.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2015, 10:43:31 AM »
So you'd rather have a gun with 5 seconds worth of ammo than more missiles? You see, that gun and ammo does not come free of a weight penalty to the airframe. An M61 + 500 rounds weigh about half a ton. You'd get four or five AIM-9X for that, or two or three AMMRAMs.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2015, 10:52:17 AM »






See the direction of armament development?
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2015, 11:27:52 AM »
And that gun can be squeezed into a place that physically CAN'T carry more missiles, making for even more efficient armament loading for a given airframe:





There will ALWAYS be a need for a gun.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1908
      • Blog
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2015, 11:34:04 AM »
So you'd rather have a gun with 5 seconds worth of ammo than more missiles? You see, that gun and ammo does not come free of a weight penalty to the airframe. An M61 + 500 rounds weigh about half a ton. You'd get four or five AIM-9X for that, or two or three AMMRAMs.

Tell this to all Phantom pilots carrying 4 AIM-7 and 4 AIM-9 and wanting a gun badly in fight against MiG-21 with 2 "AIM-9s" and a gun...

In more serious note... Ask real pilots if they want guns once they passed the merge (in training)... In how many cases Guns are actually useful after the merge? I think we would be surprised.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2015, 11:41:22 AM »
You don't need internal space to stick another missile on the plane. It's the weight that's important. A dogfight missile can be placed almost anywhere on a plane with little modification to the airframe itself. The internal space taken up by a gun can be better used for more internal fuel. Guns can be carried in pods if they're needed for a particular mission.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 11:45:20 AM by PR3D4TOR »
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2015, 11:43:29 AM »
Tell this to all Phantom pilots carrying 4 AIM-7 and 4 AIM-9 and wanting a gun badly in fight against MiG-21 with 2 "AIM-9s" and a gun...

We covered the Vietnam War earlier in the thread. We're in the information age now and have been for some time.


In more serious note... Ask real pilots if they want guns once they passed the merge (in training)... In how many cases Guns are actually useful after the merge? I think we would be surprised.

In 20-30 years time there might not be any combat pilots to ask.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline mthrockmor

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2649
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2015, 12:12:59 PM »
The next big change that will completely transform design, deployment and strategy is the laser.

After that will be artificial intelligence. Then robotics, very much associated with AI.

Lasers are being tested for mounting on ships. Within a decade CWIS' will be replaced with nearly perfect results via ship borne lasers. In time, lasers power sources will be small and efficient enough that they will be mounted on F/A-18s, -16s, -35s, etc. At the same time they will be mounted on Hummers, etc. It will fundamentally change the nature of warfare.

AI will take the pilot mostly out of the loop. A single E-2 Hawkeye will be able to command 60-100 AI flown drones like the -47. Robotics will take this technology onto the battlefield with infantry.

The horizon is becoming clearer.

boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline artik

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1908
      • Blog
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2015, 12:15:56 PM »
In 20-30 years time there might not be any combat pilots to ask.

You mean in 20-30 years there would be peace around the globe?!  :neener:

On serious note - there are still MiG-21s and F-5s flying around... not talking about Phantoms and other "old" planes.

I think you are jumping too far. If there would be no pilots I see the same story as there would be no ACM...  :salute
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2015, 12:25:54 PM »
You mean in 20-30 years there would be peace around the globe?!  :neener:

Lol, I wish!

On serious note - there are still MiG-21s and F-5s flying around... not talking about Phantoms and other "old" planes.

I think you are jumping too far. If there would be no pilots I see the same story as there would be no ACM...  :salute

Oh, I was talking about 1st world air forces. Sure there will still be many piloted combat aircraft in smaller air forces. As for the ACM thing, have you tried flying against Hitech's offline AI's? They fight better than 90% of the players in the MA. That's a relative simple game AI made by a couple of people in a small game studio in Texas.

30 years ago I was playing Elite...



30 years from now... We can hardly imagine it.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.

Offline FBKampfer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2015, 01:08:19 PM »
I don't know if you guys have been following the development and sea trials of lazers and rail gun systems, but my take on this is that as time goes on, even small developing and 3rd world countries will acquire this technology, which basically blows the SAM out of the water. And given that your plane cannot be completely invisible unless it simply doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force, which as far as we know, all atomic matter does, overinvestment and reliance on stealth seems foolhardy, and irresponsible in the extreme.

I should make clear that, for the time being, it is still useful and worth pursuing. But as the F35 doesn't look like it will be properly ready for full-scale combat until at least 2020, and, and would likely be slaughtered by the Russians and Chinese, both of which have their share of capable engineers and designers, and are well aware of high frequency radar.


It seems to me that a much more sensible solution would have been to reuse F-22 geometry, and especially produce the conceptual FB-22. The reduced cost of having much of the design already completed, as we as having part commonality with the F-22 would reduce the long-term cost of both airframes, allowing larger numbers to be fielded.

Second, it seems to me that the only responsible move would be to have conventional backup designs for all roles intended to be taken by Gen 6 airframes, should stealth be rendered obsolete. The F-15S/MTD proved to be a highly maneuverable aircraft, and would work as a dedicated air superiority fighter. Similarly modified F-16's and F-18's would also be similarly capable, and at a lower cost than the mate-grey grey monstrosity we're dumping money into.

AvA Development Group
Freebird SAC member

Great men are forged in fire; it is the privilege of lesser men to light the flames.

Offline PR3D4TOR

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2884
Re: Gen 6 USAF Fighter article
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2015, 01:13:19 PM »
A rail gun slug is not much faster than an AA missile or SAM.
No gods or kings. Only Predator.