What plane is this?

[icepac]

maybe a JU88p with the 37s?

[Oldman731]

No, the Luftwaffe never used Ju87s to attack B-17s.  There is absolutely no evidence or record of Ju87s being used to intercept B-17s over Germany other than some comment from a B-17 radio operator that claimed he saw a "Ju87 Stacey" drop bombs during a bomber raid.

Yet another myth created by Martin Caiden.  "Black Thursday" has reference to Ju-87s opposing the October 1943 Schweinfurt raid.  One of those "they were throwing the kitchen sink at us" things that intrigued the man.

Not surprising that it has become accepted lore.

- oldman

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Most likely the veteran was mistaken.


Right.

[PR3D4TOR]

Could be a typo or misidentification. They did use Ju 88's.

[Randy1]

I don't think you can discount a single, field modified plane that was never documented albeit unlikely based what others have posted..

[Ack-Ack]

Yet another myth created by Martin Caiden.  "Black Thursday" has reference to Ju-87s opposing the October 1943 Schweinfurt raid.  One of those "they were throwing the kitchen sink at us" things that intrigued the man.

Not surprising that it has become accepted lore.

- oldman

I think Caiden is actually innocent in this case, at least innocent in the fact he didn't make this up but still guilty of not doing any fact checking.  He probably got his information from the official 303rd BG's after action report that has the claim of Ju87s attacking the B-17 bomber force, which incorrectly claims they were attacked by Ju87s.

http://303rdbg.com/missionreports/098.pdf
It's on Page 7.  The report comes only from one source, the radio operator, who probably misidentified another plane as a Ju87.

[Scherf]

I believe "Gabelschwanzteufel" can't be pinned on Caiden, either. Have seen reference to it (or to "fork-tailed devil", cant remember which) in the P-38 handbook of August '45.

[Ack-Ack]

I believe "Gabelschwanzteufel" can't be pinned on Caiden, either. Have seen reference to it (or to "fork-tailed devil", cant remember which) in the P-38 handbook of August '45.

I always thought it was coined by a USAAF press officer that was in the MTO.  The US military press came up with some good nicknames that were attributed to the Axis forces, like the Japanese calling the F4U "Whistling Death".

[PR3D4TOR]

Bustr chimed in over in the other thread...

FLOOB,

Some years back someone posted info from an FW190 A8 pilot's memoirs. I followed the link to read it. I think there was maybe two full time A8 groups with the MK108 wing mounted who fought the bomber streams. From what I remember, the pilot said his group would stand off about 1100m and a bit high. Then fire their MK108 at the bombers outside of the tail gunners range. Their goal was to have the self destruct fuse detonate the round near the bombers. The self destruct fuse for the Mine shell was an 1100m fuse.

As for the mentioning of four engine aircraft standing off from the black Thursday raid. I read years ago from a luft memoir that FW200 stood off to lob their front facing 20mm at the bombers. Chemical potential rounds are pretty much range insensitive versus kinetic potential rounds. Even the MG FF had about a 1000m range.

[Ack-Ack]

Bustr chimed in over in the other thread...

Unfortunately, bustr is mistaken about the Condor being used to intercept bombers.  The Condor could never hope to be able to catch an Allied bomber, unless the bomber was on the ground and parked.  The Allied bombers on their missions flew higher than the Condor's service ceiling (19,700ft).

ack-ack

[bustr]

And germans 80 years old don't have as bad of memories as americans?? We may need to start a thread that collects WW2 memoirs and debunks them. I had no reason not to believe what I read. Maybe we should just begin saying all of the pilots from ww2 fudged their memoirs for reasons unspecified. That seems to be what this is boiling down to.

[Ack-Ack]

And germans 80 years old don't have as bad of memories as americans?? We may need to start a thread that collects WW2 memoirs and debunks them. I had no reason not to believe what I read. Maybe we should just begin saying all of the pilots from ww2 fudged their memoirs for reasons unspecified. That seems to be what this is boiling down to.

In the heat of battle it was common for even the most veteran pilot to misidentify a plane.  For example in the film footage someone posted the other day of the 8th AF showing gun camera footage of what was described as two P-47s attacking and shooting down a German bomber (ID'd in some captions as a Ju88) but in reality it showed two P-47s attacking and shooting down a RAF Mosquito.  The two P-47 pilots were experienced veterans, having flown many combat missions and IIRC, at least one (or possibly both) were aces.

The simple fact is the Condor could not have intercepted bombers attacking Germany.

[FLOOB]

Ack-ack is right about the Condor, the facts just don't allow it. Which makes me wonder about the statement about the group of 190s carrying belts of 30mm with the self destruct fuses installed.

[PR3D4TOR]

USAAF bombers wouldn't always fly above 20,000 feet. Against some targets they would fly as low as 15,000 feet for better accuracy. Usually on shorter missions over France or the Low Countries though, not Germany.

[Ack-Ack]

USAAF bombers wouldn't always fly above 20,000 feet. Against some targets they would fly as low as 15,000 feet for better accuracy. Usually on shorter missions over France or the Low Countries though, not Germany.

Grasp at straws all you like, it didn't happen.