Was the T-34 all that?

[PR3D4TOR]

The Pz III and Pz IV production alone accounts for over 29,000.

[FBKampfer]

The Pz III and Pz IV production alone accounts for over 29,000.

Try 14,000. Where are you seeing these numbers?

[PR3D4TOR]

I have the production figures around here somewhere. Give me a minute. Too many threads like this.

[PR3D4TOR]

Found it. An image I downloaded from a similar discussion over at the WoT forums a few years back. Shows total German tank production broken down by type and year.

[JVboob]

He's probably thinking of "Cuckoo". An early Panther G the British captured in Belgium and pressed into service.

YES!!!!! i had brief read up on it. should have looked back before i posted...lol

[MiloMorai]

Found it. An image I downloaded from a similar discussion over at the WoT forums a few years back. Shows total German tank production broken down by type and year.

(Image removed from quote.)

And Wiki breaks the numbers down even more,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_armored_fighting_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

Note that not all numbers in the graphic posted are tanks but include other AFV that used the tank chassis.

[PR3D4TOR]

And those figures do not account for all the other armored fighting vehicles the Germans made. Since they were not subject to the restrictions of the Versailles Treaty, Germany developed more armored half-tracks and armored wheeled vehicles than any other nation.

Just the Sd.Kfz. 250/251 adds another 20,000+ to the German AFV tally. They weighed the same as light tanks, were armored like light tanks and were armed like light tanks. In some cases they were armed like medium tanks/TDs.







Then there's the Maultier, 22,500 produced. (Most were armed with machine guns or light cannon, not rockets.)



 
Then there are the numerous 4, 6 and 8 wheeled Panzerspahwagen. Also armored and armed like light tanks, in some cases like medium tanks. The "Puma" (last picture) was also armored like a medium tank with an armor thickness of 30-100 mm. These vehicles add more tens of thousands to the tally.
















In the German army these vehicles did everything the Allies used light tanks/tracked vehicles for. Like reconnaissance, communications, command/staff etc. infantry support and even artillery/TD.

Despite their dogma and propaganda the Germans weren't supermen. There's a reason it took the world five years to defeat them. Germans are nothing if not productive.

[MiloMorai]

Then there are the numerous 4, 6 and 8 wheeled Panzerspahwagen. Also armored and armed like light tanks, in some cases like medium tanks. The "Puma" (last picture) was also armored like a medium tank with an armor thickness of 30-100 mm. These vehicles add more tens of thousands to the tally.

Actually that should be 9mm to 100mm.

The front of the turret is protected by 30 mm armor set at an angle of 20° from the vertical. The sides and rear have 10 mm armor set at 25°, and the top plate is of the same thickness. The gun mantlet is rounded, and is 40 to 100 mm thick. The front of the superstructure has 30 mm armor set at a 35° angle, and the sides 10 mm at 30°. The nose plates of the hull are 30 mm thick, the upper plate being set at a 55° angle and the lower at 30°. The glacis plate is 17 mm at 70° and the sides of the hull 9 mm at 30°.

[MiloMorai]

Armored scouts & transports

- Sd.Kfz. 221-223 series (1935-44)
3340 built. Leichter Panzerspähwagen (6 wheels).
- Sd.Kfz. 231 6-rads series (1934-40)
200 built. Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (Heavy armored scout - 6 wheels).
- Sd.Kfz. 231 8-rads series (1936-44)
1200 built. Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (Heavy armored scout - 8 wheels).
- Sd.Kfz. 247 Panzerbefehlswagen (1937-45)
68 built. 4/6 wheeled armored command car.
- Sd.Kfz. 250 (1941-45)
13,000 built. Armored half-tracks.
- Sd.Kfz. 251 Hanomag (1942-45)
15,252 built. Main German APC of the war.
- Sd.Kfz. 254 (1938-40)
140 built. Armored wheel/track hybrid artillery observation vehicle.

[Rich46yo]

Looks like the Pak-38 gun. Werent there half tracks with the Pak-40 as well? I wonder how many of these two were built and what impact they had? Of course the 251's towed the hell out of Pak 40 ATGs but I seem to remember the 251 version with the mounted Pak 40 was encountered on the western front. Now Im drawing a blank finding info.

[FBKampfer]

Found it. An image I downloaded from a similar discussion over at the WoT forums a few years back. Shows total German tank production broken down by type and year.

(Image removed from quote.)

I would be highly skeptical of those numbers based on their origins alone.

And I'm not seeing any original source listing PanzerKampfWagen IV production exceeding 9000.

I suspect those numbers include all variants and recovered and refurbished vehicles.

However, I have no idea what he's using for his Panzer III numbers. They are ludicrously high, nearly three times the number of original vehicles produced.


And if we're including troop carriers and armored cars, production for the United States alone balloons to nearly 150,000 of all types.

However, I thought we were specifically discussing tanks, or at least vehicles suitable for sustained combat. Those were the criteria I used for my tally of all nations' armored vehicles.

And it's important to note that for the most part, armored cars were not in fact used for direct combat.

[artik]

Interesting read http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/07/wwii-myths-t-34-best-tank-of-war.html

There are many myths about T-34 and it adds more.

T-34 wasn't the "best" but it was one of the best that were widely produced. At the beginning of operation Barbarossa, Panzer III and short barrel Panzer IV 75mm guns had big problems penetrating its armor. And T-34's gun was superior to German counterparts.

You should always compare the vehicles or planes according to the period. T-34 was one of the best at the beginning also it had its problems like any other vehicle.

T-34 was easy to produce and good enough, its armor and armament was good enough and superior to German one at the beginning of Soviet German hostilities.

That's it.

[MiloMorai]

I suspect those numbers include all variants and recovered and refurbished vehicles.

They are, as I posted a link in a previous post showing the breakdown of the variants.





Same author as the T-34 myths,
http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.ca/2013/09/wwii-myths-multitude-of-german-afv-types.html

[DaveBB]

I watched a history channel interview with the commander of one of these half-tracks.  His had a 75mm cannon on it.  He said they were deathtraps.  They drew enemy fire because they looked like tanks, but didn't have armor to stop anything but small arms.  Flawed design philosophy.  He went on to say how his whole squadron was wiped out.

And those figures do not account for all the other armored fighting vehicles the Germans made. Since they were not subject to the restrictions of the Versailles Treaty, Germany developed more armored half-tracks and armored wheeled vehicles than any other nation.

Just the Sd.Kfz. 250/251 adds another 20,000+ to the German AFV tally. They weighed the same as light tanks, were armored like light tanks and were armed like light tanks. In some cases they were armed like medium tanks/TDs.

(Image removed from quote.)


(Image removed from quote.)


Then there's the Maultier, 22,500 produced. (Most were armed with machine guns or light cannon, not rockets.)

(Image removed from quote.)

 
Then there are the numerous 4, 6 and 8 wheeled Panzerspahwagen. Also armored and armed like light tanks, in some cases like medium tanks. The "Puma" (last picture) was also armored like a medium tank with an armor thickness of 30-100 mm. These vehicles add more tens of thousands to the tally.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


In the German army these vehicles did everything the Allies used light tanks/tracked vehicles for. Like reconnaissance, communications, command/staff etc. infantry support and even artillery/TD.

Despite their dogma and propaganda the Germans weren't supermen. There's a reason it took the world five years to defeat them. Germans are nothing if not productive.

[MiloMorai]

from a British report:

The design shows a clear-headed appreciation of the essentials of an effective tank and the requirements of war, duly adjusted to the particular characteristics of the Russian soldier, the terrain and the manufacturing facilities available. When it is considered how recently Russia has become industrialized and how great a proportion of the industrialized regions have been over-run by the enemy, with consequent loss of hurried evacuation of plant and workers, the design and production of such useful tanks in such great numbers stands out as an engineering achievement of the first magnitude.