Texas sets new record

[NatCigg]

I read recently that while the wind power generation in TX is great, there is a bit of a problem with power distribution especially when generation exceeds demand.  The problem according to the article was that TX has a mostly isolated grid from the rest of the country.  That means that its less likely for a cascading power failure in neighboring states will take out the TX power grid, but it also means that a lot of renewable energy production in TX can't be made available to customers outside the state.  Not being able to sell excess power will have a stabilizing effect on energy prices, keeping them artificially high.  But that's probably necessary in order to preserve traditional power production that we need to fill in the gaps when natural power sources sag or don't produce enough during peak demand times.  We still need a revolution in power storage, otherwise we'll always be reliant on traditional power sources to fill in when the renewable sources can't keep up.

Personally I'm in favor of pumped water as a great way to put excess power in the bank.  Set up a couple of dual reservoirs with as much of an altitude difference between the two as practical.  When there is excess power, pump the water uphill to the high reservoir.  When power generation isn't keeping up (hot day with no wind for example, or during hot nights when local solar isn't available), run the water back downhill through turbines.  The reservoirs, if located in favorable locations, could provide for natural wildlife preservation and/or recreation which could help justify the expense of creating them, they have fewer drawbacks than some of the other stranger ideas like pumping high pressure air into underground caverns like a big high pressure bottle (fracking probably causes earthquakes, what would this idea do?), and it has the potential to dramatically reduce demand for fossil fuel burning power plants that are currently required for peak load times even in areas with lots of renewable energy sources.

i like this thinking, but you are probably looking at a lot of loss do to inefficiency, friction loss, and evaporation.  would be better to sell it downstream. 

[WWhiskey]

In my area they could be hooked up to water well fields that would only come online as excess power is generated, you wouldn't be storing energy but you would be leveling out the field for the power companies,  but then you expose your water to evaporation when it was perfectly fine under ground where it was!
the high/ low reservoir is an awesome way as well, since you really only  need pumps to push the water up and turbines to recover the energy, but, in Texas I can't think of anyplace that the terrain needed exsists?  We would need to send power into Colorado or New Mexico to find high and low areas to hold the water!

[DaveBB]

My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy.  Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.

[eagl]

i like this thinking, but you are probably looking at a lot of loss do to inefficiency, friction loss, and evaporation.  would be better to sell it downstream. 

Yea, but we're talking about excess power production that, for whatever reason, can't be distributed to locations that need it.  There are lots of localities that basically unhook renewable power from the grid when they're producing too much power to use because there's nothing they can do with the power when production exceeds demand.  Some of that is driven by economic realities because you can't just flip a switch and turn on and off a coal plant for example.  But that coal plant MUST stay in business to fill in when demand exceeds natural source production, so when there's too much power production they unplug the windmills.  If the excess windmill production could be somehow stored and used in an on-demand production facility (like you can easily do with hydro-electric power), we'd have much less of a need to keep those coal plants running hot all the time.

And it doesn't matter what the efficiency losses are, when you consider that unplugged and unused power has an efficiency of zero, or less than zero when you consider that each unused kilowatt from a wind turbine is probably offset by the need to keep some coal plant producing that same kilowatt.  Banking even a fraction of that lost excess generation is better than just throwing it away.

The social benefits of providing respectable skill-building infrastructure creation jobs to people willing to work is a bonus that can't be directly measured.

[eagl]

My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy.  Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.

I'm not sure that's going to remain true, with wind turbines at least.  It took years for Hoover dam to pay off but it gave a lot of people jobs and we're still reaping the benefits of that massive investment.  If they build the wind turbines to last and the power infrastructure is modified to maximize the use of the power they produce (including some sort of excess power storage), then I don't think there's any reason a well placed wind turbine wouldn't pay for itself over time.  Decrease in pollution is another direct benefit that can't be directly measured in terms of dollars, but can certainly be measured in terms of environmental quality and resulting population health benefits.

I'm not as convinced about solar, at least not yet.  But I think over time we'll find ways to more sustainably grow solar cells using less power and with fewer industrial by-products.  Efficiency will also rise, and we may even figure out how to loft enough cells into orbit to maximize collection efficiency and beam it down to earth for use.  There's a level of tech maturity and a huge initial investment that will be needed, but the payoff ought to be worth it.

[WWhiskey]

My information may be dated, but I do believe that there has not been a wind turbine or solar panel made that has produced a net gain in energy.  Meaning it takes far more energy to make the wind turbines/solar panels than they will produce over their lifetimes.

[zack1234]

yes,, thus the illusion of cheap groceries !

Gibberish

There is so much money held by conglomerates they have to subsidise everything to keep the whole myth of  the free market going

Funding welfare, farming, businesses and funding the wars to create more funds

[WWhiskey]

Gibberish

There is so much money held by conglomerates they have to subsidise everything to keep the whole myth of  the free market going

Funding welfare, farming, businesses and funding the wars to create more funds

what are you, twelve?
I'm guessing you know everything there is to know about farming?
you've spent from before the sun came up to long after its left the sky trying to get a crop in, or out?
you've dealt with the government farm plan and figured out how many acres of each crop you can plant and stay within the program?
you've tried to figure out if you can afford to go outside the plan?
You've figured out what rotation best suits your land?
You know the depth to set up the planter for corn according to the almanac or the farm report or you've just done it enough years that you can feel it in your bones?
You know what to do if your wrong?

I'm betting the most you know about farming is how the end result tastes!

You've been out breaking ice before school, and again after it?
You've fixed fence in a blizzard ?

[NatCigg]

Yea, but we're talking about excess power production that, for whatever reason, can't be distributed to locations that need it.  There are lots of localities that basically unhook renewable power from the grid when they're producing too much power to use because there's nothing they can do with the power when production exceeds demand.  Some of that is driven by economic realities because you can't just flip a switch and turn on and off a coal plant for example.  But that coal plant MUST stay in business to fill in when demand exceeds natural source production, so when there's too much power production they unplug the windmills.  If the excess windmill production could be somehow stored and used in an on-demand production facility (like you can easily do with hydro-electric power), we'd have much less of a need to keep those coal plants running hot all the time.

And it doesn't matter what the efficiency losses are, when you consider that unplugged and unused power has an efficiency of zero, or less than zero when you consider that each unused kilowatt from a wind turbine is probably offset by the need to keep some coal plant producing that same kilowatt.  Banking even a fraction of that lost excess generation is better than just throwing it away.

The social benefits of providing respectable skill-building infrastructure creation jobs to people willing to work is a bonus that can't be directly measured.

ok but where do you get the water? i hope you do not say texas.  even colorados water is spoken for.  if you texans have extra water id pump it back in the ground.  still, i like the thinking, use the earth and nature to solve our problems.   

we can brainstorm on a video game forum because it brought us together but if there is a good solution im sure it will come out, smart kids are abound, and the market works. 

Also, texas dont take no crap, so they will get the job done.