Author Topic: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review  (Read 7880 times)

Offline JunkyII

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2016, 07:41:52 PM »
I'm not very savvy when it comes to all these terms.. but I think "Wing Loading" would be a better place to start. An aircraft with a low wing loading (larger wing area, more lift, slower speed. Think Spitfire/A6M) will turn better than an aircraft with a high wing load (smaller wing area, less lift, faster speed. Think 190/P51)

I highly doubt the 110 and A20 were that maneuverable in real life.. though the A20 is a bit more believable than the 110, I think you could say they're the true UFO's of AH's flight model.

At 1:57 you see Junky is trying to turn hard left into the P51, while he's doing this left turn he also does a bit of a left roll that puts him below the 51. The decision by Junky to follow him like he did allowed the P51 a brief moment to get his nose around for a quick shot, as you see in the film. Had Junky not followed the P51, and instead opted for a high yo yo or any upwards vertical maneuver other than the downwards maneuver he made, he would have denied any gun solution the P51 may have had, and been in a much better position above him afterwards. If timed correctly this maneuver would have worked on a N1K, Spit.. no matter what Junky was fighting against.
At 1:57 I knew I had made the mistake right then and there, knew he would get a shot opportunity if he rolled over correctly...which he did.

As for flaps, that's one area I don't know what exactly I'm doing I just know what seems to work to get my plane to react the way I want it to......flaps are in and out all over the place....when I don't need them to purpose the angle I'm going for I bring them up.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2016, 08:14:45 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's the point Puma is trying to impress on you about the improper terminology that you are using.  As noted by FLS, it is important for the trainee to know the proper terminology, otherwise it is all for naught.


Agreed.  We should all be on the same page.

and Vudak, Puma44 suffers from the old age weakness of trying to explain things simply, step by step.  Its how we learned, and as we age, its how we try to teach. 

Pity us.  Woe woe woe.

- oldman

Offline JunkyII

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2016, 08:37:42 PM »
Give it a rest guys, this is a spill over from another thread so I understand what Vudak is talking about and I know what Puma is trying to do.

Give critique, move on...don't beat around the bush ladies.

Got a film of me in a spit V vs an entire squad(I die, but I hang in there for about 8 minutes of straight bounces).....going to post it tomorrow with another review.

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Offline Vudak

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2016, 08:38:54 PM »
Give it a rest guys, this is a spill over from another thread so I understand what Vudak is talking about and I know what Puma is trying to do.

Give critique, move on...don't beat around the bush ladies.

Got a film of me in a spit V vs an entire squad(I die, but I hang in there for about 8 minutes of straight bounces).....going to post it tomorrow with another review.

 :salute

Whoa now where the hell do you get off trying to save your own thread and put it back on topic?  :cheers:
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2016, 08:44:35 PM »
Whoa now where the hell do you get off trying to save your own thread and put it back on topic?  :cheers:
Trying to keep these ones classy :aok...hopefully they produce interest in the fight so we can have better ones more often :cheers:
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Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2016, 11:03:16 PM »
Hey Puma, are you the Puma who was a jet combat pilot in the military?

Yes Bustr, one in the same and very privileged and lucky to have the experience.  Dogfighting being one of the most fun experiences of them all.   :salute

I'm pretty sure that's the point Puma is trying to impress on you about the improper terminology that you are using.  As noted by FLS, it is important for the trainee to know the proper terminology, otherwise it is all for naught.

ack-ack

Spot on Ack-Ack.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 11:56:39 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2016, 11:06:04 PM »

Agreed.  We should all be on the same page.

and Vudak, Puma44 suffers from the old age weakness of trying to explain things simply, step by step.  Its how we learned, and as we age, its how we try to teach. 

Pity us.  Woe woe woe.

- oldman

Who are you calling old Oldman?  :rofl.  I'm holding strong at 22. :D
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 11:52:21 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Randy1

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2016, 06:53:25 AM »
Randy1,

Regarding your example of a plane flying straight having zero lift, is incorrect, if it had zero lift, it would there for be flying at zero G, and would gradually go into a nose dive

Planes flying straight and level, are normally flying under a force (think Lift Vector here) of around 1 +G nearly constant...

Correct me if I'm wrong please

TC

Almost right.  Graphically speaking, the summation of the force down(gravity) and the force up(keep the plane level) equals zero.  So a plane flying level has zero force(lift vector) to make it go up.

Another way to think of a vector example  is on a plane going straight up.  Now there are two vectors.  The Gravity vector pulling the plane down(Constant) and the summation of the trust from the prop and the planes E(In MA terms).  As E falls with speed loss and thrust vector(constant) the plane slows.   At the precise point the planes stops going up, the summation of all vectors is zero.

The vomit comet is another good example where the summation of all vectors is zero to produce a weightless environment.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2016, 06:56:05 AM »

Agreed.  We should all be on the same page.

and Vudak, Puma44 suffers from the old age weakness of trying to explain things simply, step by step.  Its how we learned, and as we age, its how we try to teach. 

Pity us.  Woe woe woe.

- oldman

To be honest, I haven't seen any step by step training undertstanding from Puma. That is mostly why I've been making my arguements here. I just don't see enough depth from the trainers. Plus, if you expect a trainee 17 year old to know terminology before even being tought something about the game I think you are in the wrong forums. Maybe it would be best to post a sticky of BFM definitions with guidance so people understand what you are talking about.

Anyway, I will admit that I was the Pony B in this film. Junky and I thought it would be a good idea to show an advanced fight in the game to encourage players to see how real fights in the MA go down. Even close fights like this show there are things to still work on. I was showing defensive maneuvers. Junky was trailing my 6 and I attempted to make a fight out of it in order to pull a counterpunch. It's what I like to do in the game. I was going about 100 mph slower on the initial merge. The Pony B was just quite not able to get around as well as I wanted to, but I'm glad we could make a good fight out of it. That's mostly why I'm commenting here, because I know exactly what happened.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:58:21 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2016, 07:50:23 AM »
Almost right.  Graphically speaking, the summation of the force down(gravity) and the force up(keep the plane level) equals zero.  So a plane flying level has zero force(lift vector) to make it go up.

Another way to think of a vector example  is on a plane going straight up.  Now there are two vectors.  The Gravity vector pulling the plane down(Constant) and the summation of the trust from the prop and the planes E(In MA terms).  As E falls with speed loss and thrust vector(constant) the plane slows.   At the precise point the planes stops going up, the summation of all vectors is zero.

The vomit comet is another good example where the summation of all vectors is zero to produce a weightless environment.

I thought we were talking about "Lift Vector"?

let's go back to what has been posted:

I originally posted a link to the AH Training Corps article on "Flight Controls"

the following quoted post is how it went:
Lift Vector

http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/88-first-timers/learning-to-fly/1052-flight-controls

as described on the AH TRAINING website

basically, the same thing Dolby posted...

TC


Vector is not an aviation invention.  Vector is a mathematical display of forces.  A vector has both direction and length where the length is an indication of magnitude.

As an example, a plane is going straight and level has zero lift vector.  That is. the plane has no force to make it go up.  Pull back hard on the stick and the length of the lift vector goes up at the same time the force to make the plane go straight shrinks.

Remember hot wheel cars that went through a loop.  The vector on the car as it goes through the loop goes down representing centrifugal force.  Go too slow and the little car falls off the track at the top of the loop.

Randy1,

Regarding your example of a plane flying straight having zero lift, is incorrect, if it had zero lift, it would there for be flying at zero G, and would gradually go into a nose dive

Planes flying straight and level, are normally flying under a force (think Lift Vector here) of around 1 +G nearly constant...

Correct me if I'm wrong please

TC


Actually it's mostly because lift adds drag. The lift vector is not really perpendicular to flight path although it's convenient to think of it that way. It's tilted back a little which is why more lift equals more drag. So, gravity aside, when turn performance is reduced after increasing pitch it's because drag has reduced your speed since, as Dolby mentioned, lift is both speed and AOA.

In level flight isn't the lift vector 1g? So the magnitude is expressed in radial g and the direction is near perpendicular to the flight path?

What we usually mean when we discuss lift vector is plane of maneuver. Flight path and lift vector direction being the 2 lines that define the plane.


I posted, in my first post, "basically, the same thing Dolby posted..."

then I replied to your post

then FLS came in and backed me up on the flying level and straight, ( in Aces High, I should have added since this is what we are referring to  I gather) , FLS posted "In level flight isn't the lift vector 1g?"

now you have dropped the "Lift" part of "Lift Vector" and are simply referring to "Vector" and have changed the direction from Horizontal straight and level flight , to Vertical up and down flight

I am not here to argue, but why are you changing your first response to something completely different?

here is another AH Training Corps webpage link for you:

Flight Dynamics
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/89-tactics/advanced-flight-concepts/1057-flight-dynamics

guess I should have included this one yesterday as well

I'll leave it at that...

hope this helps/ have a blessed day!

TC
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2016, 08:08:28 AM »
Since everyone seems to know all this stuff ( in their own minds, in my opinion )

does any of you know at what point a prop driven plane is producing the most power/ thrust, with the throttle and RPM's maxed?   ( just a slight hi-jacking side question )


TC
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 08:12:03 AM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline FLS

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2016, 10:31:53 AM »
Randy do you think an airplane sitting on the ground has the same lift vector as an airplane in level flight?


Offline Rolex

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2016, 03:05:32 PM »
Is it stting on a treadmill?   :noid

Offline FLS

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2016, 03:17:11 PM »
Is it stting on a treadmill?   :noid

One for each wheel but they're all turning at different speeds.    ;)

Offline Randy1

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2016, 04:34:05 PM »
Randy do you think an airplane sitting on the ground has the same lift vector as an airplane in level flight?

The lift vector is negative equal to the mass of the plane sitting on the ground not moving.  If the lift vector is positive the object goes up.

A plane in a dive will have a negative lift vector as well.

Keep in mind vectors represent the forces acting on an object.  Adding a name like "Lift" to a vector gave it a false definition of always being positive of always being positive.