Help with design of upcoming Eastern Front scenario

[Brooke]

Zimme, come back in for frame 4.

We are all doing our best to make it GLORIOUS! 

[ROC]

Ya I already told Zimme he could fly with us if he wanted to   No need to sit it out. 

[LCADolby]

So now we are side switching to skew the numbers even more so. You guys 

[Zimme83]

So now we are side switching to skew the numbers even more so. You guys 

Well... Since ive left the LW side I assume that i can do whatever I want, including fly for the VVS. But you dont have to worry, i will most likely not be able to attend in frame 4.

[ROC]

Dolby knock it off, you are getting tiring.  First you say that All Players know the event is lopsided, and you are not correct and don't speak for all players.  Then you post in a forum specifically trying to figure out why the Axis isn't showing up and in here you berate a player who tried to explain it to you, that left, not for a thing I did, but for what your team did.
Now you are complaining because a player you drove away and still wants to enjoy the event may fly over on the other side.
You know what, this is getting sad so let me explain it to YOU.

You are not paying attention to what is important.
Your team is going to get your last frame score changed DOWN, why?  Your guys hit City Targets, not Town at 44. Even Tunes!  You guys had a Non Uniform player kill me. I didn't care, it didn't matter, but you can't even get your own crap sorted out and you are bellyaching about drivel so now I'm going to bring it up and point it out and in Fairness, fix YOUR screw ups.
Shut up and fix your own problems that need to be solved.

tunes3
14:26:43 Departed from Field #53 in a Ju 88A-4
14:52:59 Was shot down by Tikto (exploded).
15:03:45 Departed from Field #9 in a Ju 88A-4
15:51:43 Was shot down by Jakke (crashed).
16:04:17 Departed from Field #52 in a Ju 88A-4
16:27:43 Destroyed a field gun at base #44
16:27:43 Destroyed a vehicle hangar at base #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:55 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:56 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a field gun at base #44
16:30:58 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:30:59 Destroyed a city building at city #44
16:51:11 Arrived Safely at Field #52
16:51:19 Departed from Field #52 in a Ju 88A-4
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:06:58 Destroyed a field gun at base #64
17:07:00 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:07:00 Destroyed a town building at base #64
17:22:52 Arrived Safely at Field #52

Just play and put a lid on it.  I didn't care, it didn't matter, it wasn't worth it, but you just won't get off it. 

[ROC]

You may very well be right that there is a balance issue, but frankly it is falling deaf ears simply because you are blaming everything wrong on your side on the setups perceived imbalance. Take some responsibility. Own up to something, we are not ahead simply because the event conditions are not your perfect storm conditions.  Man up and at least give credit where it's due, we did well in frame 1, you did well in frame 2 (quiet as crickets about the setup conditions for some unknown reason) and now just cannot say frame 3 we had anything to do with the success.  It cannot possibly be your communication system, it cannot possibly be your plans, it cannot possibly be anything other than design, it's inconceivable that the all powerful Axis Team could lose.  You really need to ask yourself, in all honesty, if you were ahead and I was barking this tripe, what would you be telling me?  My God man, an Axis Player tried to tell you what he thought was wrong and you ripped him for it.  Now, of course, again, I'm "stealing" your players.  He isn't yours, he left, I didn't take him.  You lost him long before today.  Please, again, in your Clear Plain English, what exactly did I do to cause your player to leave you?  You just don't have it in you to stop, do you?

[LCADolby]

Dolby knock it off, you are getting tiring.  First you say that All Players know the event is lopsided, and you are not correct and don't speak for all players.  Then you post in a forum specifically trying to figure out why the Axis isn't showing up and in here you berate a player who tried to explain it to you, that left, not for a thing I did, but for what your team did.
Now you are complaining because a player you drove away and still wants to enjoy the event may fly over on the other side.
You know what, this is getting sad so let me explain it to YOU.

You are not paying attention to what is important.
Your team is going to get your last frame score changed DOWN, why?  Your guys hit City Targets, not Town at 44. Even Tunes!  You guys had a Non Uniform player kill me. I didn't care, it didn't matter, but you can't even get your own crap sorted out and you are bellyaching about drivel so now I'm going to bring it up and point it out and in Fairness, fix YOUR screw ups.
Shut up and fix your own problems that need to be solved.
Just play and put a lid on it.  I didn't care, it didn't matter, it wasn't worth it, but you just won't get off it.

It is lopsided and I have pointed out why, claiming I am wrong about that is nonsensical. This scenario first put a lid on the altitude to get fights to stay low in VVS territory. False claims about the aircraft being so close are frankly laughable; The bombers are grossly mismatched, the Ju88. The IL2 is better than I have read claimed here, I can't believe how played down Russia's most famous and formidable foe Sturmovik is being marginalised to fit the notion its monumentally worse than a 190F8 and that fixes everything. The job they are to do is object killing, and if I wanted the path of least resistance I'd choose an IL2 over the 190F8 for the job, especially in squadron strength.

That player didn't express anything accurate and exaggerated greatly. He wasn't driven away by myself or the changing of orders, he was driven away by his attention deficit. We were still waiting to go, getting people in uniform and walk-ons in squads and his impatience was already evident. Both you and I know that it is grossly misplaced to say I or axis orders drove him out in any shape or form.

Axis are not getting the pilots and of course I am right in expressing concern about side switching after a frame that was a piss take for fair numbers and of someone that has the frame and event he left a "waste of time". Are you going for another rout of a frame to reaffirm my posts.

As for uniform, if you assailant was a walk-on for a 190A5, he will have been invited to the correct squad, unless he was doing as he pleased. We the commanders did everything humanly possible to get this right, I personally spammed squad invites to every single pilot I sae without uniform in the closing stages prior to launch. I myself had a walkon in my own squad cause issue, in which he changed aircraft after a flight without any warning or conversation. Staying on vox channel but going off with the group of aircraft type he wanted to fly but was not assigned. We also have had another pilot consistently ignore everything and go do his thing to the point his unfamiliar name is not etched in my mind. This is not an isolated incident that has only ever happened in this scenario am I right, so this is not something so easily controlled as my screw up.

I paid attention to what is important of that you can be completely assured of. Otherwise I would have not made so many vehement postings.

As for your follow on post, "deaf ears" as expected. It's always been a pointless exercise, and that's probably another one to put as a reason for low attendance.

Here is me taking responsibility; Giving 110% effort every frame. Listening and carrying out my orders as ordered by my CO, and questioning and proposing changes as required. Getting my pilots in uniform, vox, clear orders, repeating when necessary. Leading by example above all else. Credit where it is due, thanks for taking part. As for frame 2 and silence, have you considered our utter shock and surprise at the result?

Again you go on about winning and losing, I again repeat that we want a close turn encounter, historical accuracy and most of all good gameplay. I should not be having to be repeating that to you again and again. Are you so obsessed with winning and losing so much it is even clouding the very words I have written and you are replacing them in your mind?

If I was ahead, what a thing to suggest, I am ahead, my kill rate is exceptional as Bruv pointed out in a PM to me. But in your shoes with the results, I'd be avoiding posting anything not posted directly at me.

You "" around the word stealing, I can't find that word in my text to quote it but I hope now he is on the path of least resistance, he will be happy. I sure hope he can concentrate for more than an hour this time.
And no, I don't stop until things are set straight. If you want me to stop don't post to me.

[ROC]

This scenario first put a lid on the altitude to get fights to stay low in VVS territory.

Oh this is pure gold 

Your side accused us of cheating in an irrelevant practice frame by breaking a non existent alt cap, we were up at just over 20k, by as little as a few hundred feet but just slightly over your guys and you guys went nuts!  We were up at your peak performance area, not ours, and we were roasted for not flying historically!  You guys were talking up the different ways to make sure we stayed lower.  This one literally had me laughing out loud. 

This is fun, we'll have to do this again sometime

If I was ahead, what a thing to suggest, I am ahead

<---- Hmm, seems like you may be a little fixated on winning. 

But in your shoes with the results, I'd be avoiding posting anything not posted directly at me.

  You'd avoid posting in "my" shoes?  My results?  You mean the fact that as I'm trying to pay attention to the entire arena I am getting shot down?  My results.  Look around, My results is "OUR" team is doing just fine, glad "YOU" are doing well.   

As for your follow on post, "deaf ears" as expected. It's always been a pointless exercise, and that's probably another one to put as a reason for low attendance.

So now that fact that I don't agree with you, deaf ears and all, is another reason for low attendance?  What on earth are you thinking?  I didn't design this event, what the hell does it matter to you if I think you are missing the point?  Your guys aren't showing up because the mean old ROC doesn't agree with Dolby? You give me far too much credit   

Relax bud, it's a game, you're trying to hard.

[LCADolby]

You have misunderstood quite a lot of my post ROC.

When we thought it was a cap, of course we complained, I had instructed my squad not to go above and meet the merge of the enemy over the cap. I didn't mention anything about history only an alt cap/rule break, and that exploit the VVS made on it's way back down the wind. Peak performance for luft is not 20k, there are graphs in AH you might want to consult.

No, not fixated on winning the frame or the event, my performance as an individual; to inspire my squad, to give hope. Having you turn that around is amusing, but I can see how you can misunderstand.

Yes I would avoid posting in your shoes. Not because of your particular performance, but because it would draw less attention to the set up balance, and other things I have mentioned.

ROC your last paragraph I read it as that you are essentially just trolling now. You and Brooke will be on opposing sides for the next one right

[ROC]

ROC your last paragraph I read it as that you are essentially just trolling now.

I thought it would take you another full day to get here    But Im not trolling now, been pretty much trolling you for a while now. 
Of course I know there are issues, every set up has an intention and then reality hits.  It's an impossible problem to solve as players will always do and see things the people designing an event didn't see.  But the people that do this are always trying to improve them.  There isn't anything intentionally one sided, it's a real effort to do things as balanced as they see it.

And as for my desire to win?  You bet your butt I want my team to win 

Should have seen that coming from the start, I'm your opposition CO, it's my job to twist you and distract you   This is a conversation for after the event, absolutely.  And yes indeed, Brooke and I will fly on opposite sides next time, he wasn't part of any strategy here, no input at all on the mission other than does he understand his orders.  But I can see the concern, even though I am not on the team, I have been, in top capacities for a long time, I do get it.

[Brooke]

So, another thought brought up is the altitude cap.

As for alt cap, that is based also on a desire for realism.  I want the style of fighting to be like what I've read about in books about Eastern Front air combat.  It is not realistic for Eastern Front fights to commonly be at 38k (which happens in scenarios with no alt cap, even Malta).  There are lots of reasons Eastern Front fights were typically not that high, and some of those reasons, I can't replicate in the arena, so I have to pick some other way to give the same effect, just as a downwind alt cap.  I can't just throw in thick clouds above a certain altitude because all planes in AH have in-cockpit GPS, and so they can use clouds in ways that are highly unrealistic.  (One intriguing way that will bear future experimentation is just how visibility works in AH3, where unlike in AH2 you can have real problems seeing aircraft against the ground when you are up too high -- maybe it means we won't need alt caps anymore.)

So, what alt to pick then?  I bought five Kindle books on Eastern European aerial combat that I could search electronically, with first-hand accounts from Eastern Front pilots both German and Soviet, and spent the time to search all of them for every reference to altitude of bombing and fighter combat.  What I found was a very large number of references to low-altitude action.  For specific numbers, I found the vast majority of references to combats from the deck on up to about 15k or so and only one reference to a fight higher (Guther Rall flying at 19,000 ft, spotting a Russian recon plane at 26,000 ft, and climbing up to shoot it).  So, I figured 19k would be a good pick, but the downwind works on 2k alt boundaries, so it would need to be 18k or 20k, not 19k.  I picked 20k as a round number.  I doubt picking 18k or 22k would change the dynamics of the fighting much, however.

[Easyscor]

(from a curious outsider observer)

Every event designer wants to fly his design. The moment he does, rightfully or not, he discredits his concept and invites criticism.

There are ways to solve this issue but they haven't been used since around 2003.

ROC, you might remember, the events were planed well in advance and the side command staffs were required to participate in the final review and most importantly, required to sign off on the rules and balance.

When was the last time the designers here did that? This is an observation, not a criticism of any one individual unless you want to spread it around amoung the past and present Scenario team members.

[ROC]

When was the last time the designers here did that?

That would be about the last time we got a CO to step up long before the last minute. 

Every event designer wants to fly his design. The moment he does, rightfully or not, he discredits his concept and invites criticism.

It's wrong to hold Brooke or anyone else accountable because Fencer was biased in his designs.  He's not here.  Brooke is about a biased as a sock.

[Brooke]

We generally lack the ability to get command teams much in advance, but it's a good idea when we are fortunate enough to get them enough in advance.

Just to be clear on the things I've been addressing here, though, the majority of it is about Tu-2's speed.

[Brooke]

Brooke is about a biased as a sock.