Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[GScholz]

You continue to avoid the question. Not surprising nor unexpected, but telling nonetheless.

What "stuff" exactly, and confirmed by whom exactly? Be specific!

[Vulcan]

Read the links. It's all there.

[FLOOB]

https://warisboring.com/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875#.6j2l7yoe7

[nrshida]

https://warisboring.com/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875#.6j2l7yoe7

Again, the event referenced in that article was not a dogfight nor a competitive test. That was an exercise to help develop the flight control software.

I don't mean to sound rude or condescending, but some of you really ought to try and think for yourselves and not swallow spoon-fed, pre-chewed parcels of propaganda from a media with an obvious agenda. If you form an almost arbitrary opinion on a whim, and then selectively pick out information to support your position, well...   

[FLOOB]

Well there's a problem with that perspective and here's the thing.. The Westland Whirlwind was a complete and shameful failure.

[nrshida]

Well there's a problem with that perspective and here's the thing.. The Westland Whirlwind was a complete and shameful failure.

Don't remember claiming it was anything uber. Complete non sequitur however. If you're trying to annoy me or offend me you're barking up the wrong tree Floob.

[Serenity]

I will say, my big complaint with the 35 has always been a systems issue, and cost/development. I'll eat any words I said about BFM, anything that can do this with such grace is pretty glorious lol. If I was the pilot of that 35, I'd HAVE to make the radio call "Deuces."

[GScholz]

 

[save]

https://theaviationist.com/2015/07/01/f-35s-role-in-green-flag/
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/209247-new-report-claims-f-35-outclassed-by-40-year-old-f-16-government-disagrees

[DaveBB]

World's most expensive light attack aircraft.  Can't dogfight, can't maneuver, exhibits extreme buffeting, but it can carry a couple small diameter bombs internally.  It's almost as if it's a big surprise that the pilots are finding the gigantic helmets awkward to use while under high G's.  I bet a lot of back and neck injuries will result from this.

History of the multi-service aircraft:
The F-4 was a mediocre.  Took special training for our pilots and even the Israelis to be successful with it.
The F-111 multi-service aircraft was a disaster.
VF-22 is a disaster.

[bozon]

World's most expensive light attack aircraft.  Can't dogfight, can't maneuver, exhibits extreme buffeting, but it can carry a couple small diameter bombs internally.  It's almost as if it's a big surprise that the pilots are finding the gigantic helmets awkward to use while under high G's.  I bet a lot of back and neck injuries will result from this.

History of the multi-service aircraft:
The F-4 was a mediocre.  Took special training for our pilots and even the Israelis to be successful with it.
The F-111 multi-service aircraft was a disaster.
VF-22 is a disaster.

Bad example the F-4. It was one of the most successful planes of the jet age.  The IAF loved it even if it was less sexy than the Mirage III. I dont know what special training you talk about. It had an airborne radar and a WSO which were pretty new things at the time it was introduced, so yes it probably did require training of pilots who never flew a plane with a radar or had a WSO behind them.

In dogfights it compensated with brute power over nimbleness. I dont know who forgot to install the cannon in it, or forgot to train its pilots in dogfighting (maybe that is what was "special" about their training), but the IAF bought the ones with the nose cannon and blasted migs with it out of the skies. The Mirage was a better dogfighter, but in real life combat, the airborne radar proved to be priceless.

[Vulcan]

I thought the F4's issue was the lack of a cannon and heavily overrated a2a missile capability?  The designers decided that all future combat would be BVR (sound familiar?) and thus only highly accurate missiles would be needed (also hence the lack of good acm / tactics training). The f4 performance was good, hence tacking on a cannon didn't prove an issue, and better tactics for fighting the migs were developed.

[Squire]

The F-4 Phantom was a design for the US Navy. It was not designed for all the services. The USAF adopted it and the USMC adopted it. The F-35 is mult-role and multi-service both and was designed from the outset to be that.

[DaveBB]

The USAF, USN, and USMC sure was in a big hurry to replace the F-4 after the Vietnam War.  It remained in service, but just because we had a lot of them.  It suffered from a lot of the same flaws the F-35 does.  It overly relied on electronics rather than aerodynamics.  It was not maneuverable compared to the aircraft it faced in combat.  The Navy developed the Fighter Weapons School to try to give its pilots a advantage over the simple yet maneuverable Migs they faced.  Just as an example of how ill suited the F-4 was for dogfighting, the Navy FWS actually taught a maneuver to depart the F-4 while in a 1-circle fight.  While departed, the aircraft could be induced to yaw very quickly.  This enabled the pilot to slew his nose ahead of the other aircraft.  Should you really have to depart an aircraft in a dogfight? Desperate times called for desperate measures.  The F-4 was a big reason the USAF developed Red Flag also.  The F-4 was really a mediocre aircraft. Extensive pilot training is about the only thing that made up for its deficiencies.  Like I said, the U.S. was real quick to develop replacements for the F-4 after seeing its deficiencies in Vietnam.

[Squire]

The F-4 had a tremendous weapons load, good range, it was very fast and had good rate of climb. It's radar was also more powerful than almost all its contemporaries. It's true that it was not designed for close in fighter combat but that was mitigated somewhat by better training for the aircrews in ACM. Red Flag was developed to that end. As a result of aircrew training deficiencies. It was the most important fighter the USA fielded in the 1970s and much of the 1980s. At the end of the Vietnam War it had been is service for 15 years so the fact it was being replaced is no big surprise.