Dogfight : F35 vs F16

[Vraciu]

Yay it's me! 

In other news:

"The Air Force will declare initial operational capability of the F-35A as early as Monday, meeting a goal set three years ago. "

http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pages/2016/July%202016/July%2028%202016/F-35-IOC-Imminent.aspx

A non-accomplishment.  Six years late, to boot.

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_operating_capability

IOC) is the state achieved when a capability is available in its minimum useully deployable form. The term is often used in government or military procurement.

For a U.S. Department of Defense military acquisition, IOC includes operating the training and maintaining parts of the overall system per DOTMLPF, and is defined as 'In general, attained when some units and/or organizations in the force structure scheduled to receive a system have received it and have the ability to employ and maintain it. The specifics for any particular system IOC are defined in that system’s Capability Development Document (CDD) and Capability Production Document (CPD).'

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Not to be confused with combat-capable.

[Rich46yo]

With the AMRAAM's anemic PK, maybe two.

The AIM-120 A and B models have a 59% kill rate, 17 for 10 kills, 20 to 34 years ago. Maybe you want to recalculate your estimates. And thats the problem with the F-35, to many people read news clipping and have no idea what the aircraft was actually designed to do.

[Vraciu]

The AIM-120 A and B models have a 59% kill rate, 17 for 10 kills, 20 to 34 years ago. Maybe you want to recalculate your estimates. And thats the problem with the F-35,

Twenty to thirty-four (THIRTY FOUR) YEARS *AGO* against second-tier threats.   A PK of 59% is anemic in and of itself but is far higher than anyone who knows anything about this subject will tell you it is RIGHT NOW (not 20+ years ago), particularly against first-tier threats.

If the most-advanced version of the Slammer has a PK of even 40% against first-tier enemies I'll eat my hat.

to many people read news clipping and have no idea what the aircraft was actually designed to do.

Oh the irony.     

It was designed as a strike fighter with LIMITED self-defense capability.   It is now being tasked with being the world's greatest air superiority platform (along with a whole bunch of other stuff it wasn't expected to do initially).

Ain't gonna' happen.

[Rich46yo]

With the AMRAAM's anemic PK, maybe two.

Your words not mine.

Not anemic because we are talking overall kills with a evolving system. You cant compare current AMRAAM with first deployed. Would you compare current AIM-7 with the first ones?

The truth is modern air wars are won with strike fighters. Attack enemy networked air defense...destroy enemy networked air defense....game over. Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia, Libya, even Afghanistan. First thing is take out air defense, then game over.

It was designed as a strike fighter with LIMITED self-defense capability.   It is now being tasked with being the world's greatest air superiority platform

Kinda sounds like the F-16. How did that work out? Without stealth?

The F35 it loaded with a terrific avionics package. Networked into a terrific support package. Who really is going to be a threat against an F35 equipped USAF or Ally?

Twenty to thirty-four (THIRTY FOUR) YEARS *AGO* against second-tier threats.   A PK of 59% is anemic in and of itself but is far higher than anyone who knows anything about this subject will tell you it is RIGHT NOW (not 20+ years ago), particularly against first-tier threats.

If the most-advanced version of the Slammer has a PK of even 40% against first-tier enemies I'll eat my hat.


Oh the irony.     

It was designed as a strike fighter with LIMITED self-defense capability.   It is now being tasked with being the world's greatest air superiority platform (along with a whole bunch of other stuff it wasn't expected to do initially).

Ain't gonna' happen.

[Zimme83]

F-16 was from the beginning a day Fighter, designed to be cheap. The continuous upgrades have turned it to a multi role fighter and it does it well, its not a bad plane at all but against the most modern fighters it would struggle a bit - if it was just down to the capability of the planes. It rarely is though.

[GScholz]

Good news on its stealth capabilities. 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/07/31/f-35-so-stealthy-produced-training-challenges-pilot-says/87760454/


"The F-35 is so stealthy, it produced training challenges, pilot says"

"The F-35 Lightning II is so stealthy, pilots are facing an unusual challenge. They're having difficulty participating in some types of training exercises, a squadron commander told reporters Wednesday.

During a recent exercise at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, F-35 squadrons wanted to practice evading surface-to-air threats. There was just one problem: No one on the ground could track the plane."

[bozon]

The truth is modern air wars are won with strike fighters. Attack enemy networked air defense...destroy enemy networked air defense....game over. Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia, Libya, even Afghanistan. First thing is take out air defense, then game over.

The only example of the above that had any kind of real air defences was Vietnam. Hardly a winner and air defences were not take out. US air forces suffered greatly by the same presumptions that BVR missiles is all you need.

Libia and Afganistan, air power had very little effect. The real targets of the Libia bombing were sitting in fromt of their TV in France and America.

The bombing of Iraq helped the ground troops a bit and mostly killed a lot of civilians. Iraqi air defences were a joke yet the coalition still managed to lose a few planes before realizing it and flying high enough so goat herders with an ak47 will not shoot them down.

The west has not faced a serious opponent in the air since vietnam.

[GScholz]

The Royal Navy would disagree with you I think. But apart from them no one has faced a serious opponent in the air since the Vietnam War.

[Vraciu]

Your words not mine.

Not anemic because we are talking overall kills with a evolving system. You cant compare current AMRAAM with first deployed. Would you compare current AIM-7 with the first ones?

The truth is modern air wars are won with strike fighters. Attack enemy networked air defense...destroy enemy networked air defense....game over. Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia, Libya, even Afghanistan. First thing is take out air defense, then game over. Kinda sounds like the F-16. How did that work out? Without stealth?

The F35 it loaded with a terrific avionics package. Networked into a terrific support package. Who really is going to be a threat against an F35 equipped USAF or Ally?

The AMRAAM has new capabilities that are offset by the enemy's ability to counter it.  Nobody expects a 59% PK in future wars, particularly when deployed by the T/A-35.  Pole length matters.  The Just So Failed will be shooting uphill at about Mach 1.5.  The bad guys will be higher and faster with the ability to shoot first and break away. 

What avionics capabilities?   You mean helmet jitter?

What will we do when our enemies jam our networks?   This is a real threat.  The airplane is already vulnerable to cyber attacks via its maintenance software.   

And when the Joint Strike Failure gets a divide by zero error flameout you can't tow it back to base.

https://gcn.com/Articles/1998/07/13/Software-glitches-leave-Navy-Smart-Ship-dead-in-the-water.aspx?m=2


This airplane is already obsolescent. 

It is optimized for X-band front quarter stealth.   Load it up with all those missiles and you lose the only thing that MIGHT keep it alive. 

[Vraciu]

The Royal Navy would disagree with you I think. But apart from them no one has faced a serious opponent in the air since the Vietnam War.

And to do so with the T/A-35 will be suicide.  It is a strike fighter, not an air superiority one. 

[Vraciu]

Good news on its stealth capabilities. 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2016/07/31/f-35-so-stealthy-produced-training-challenges-pilot-says/87760454/


"The F-35 is so stealthy, it produced training challenges, pilot says"

"The F-35 Lightning II is so stealthy, pilots are facing an unusual challenge. They're having difficulty participating in some types of training exercises, a squadron commander told reporters Wednesday.

During a recent exercise at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, F-35 squadrons wanted to practice evading surface-to-air threats. There was just one problem: No one on the ground could track the plane."

Quote:

Remember, ladies and gentlemen: when you ask the Air Force a question about the F-35, you’re not going to get a candid answer … you’re going to get a scripted one.

We know this because F-35 discussions are governed not by unguarded insights or unvarnished opinions, but by strictly controlled flows of information and message discipline that would make a presidential campaign blush.

http://www.jqpublicblog.com/latest-f-35-talking-points-abuse-airpower-history/




Quote:

An eight-page propaganda plan obtained by JQP — labeled “F-35A Public Affairs Guidance” and shared in entirety below — lays out in painstaking (and painful) detail the authorized answers to public questions about the program.


http://www.jqpublicblog.com/ten-things-you-should-know-about-the-air-forces-f-35-propaganda-effort/

[Zimme83]

In another part of the world it seems like China will have their first squadron of J-20:s operational very soon.

[Vulcan]

Not anemic because we are talking overall kills with a evolving system. You cant compare current AMRAAM with first deployed. Would you compare current AIM-7 with the first ones?

You seem to assume that while the AMRAAM has advanced in technology that the adversary has not. Do you honestly think the potential adversaries of the F35 have stayed put with what they had 30 years ago?

[GScholz]

AMRAAMs are death wands. Always have been. The mediocre hit statistics comes from a number of shots being taken outside the proper launch parameters. Pilots will do that in combat for a number of reasons. When fired within the launch parameters the AMRAAM has a consistent PK in the 0.9s. Dodgy statistics is not the same as PK. The PK is the probability of kill when the missile is fired within the proper launch parameters.

The fact is, the AMRAAM is the most operationally successful medium range missile in service today. There is no other current BVR weapon that has demonstrated anywhere near its operational effectiveness. AMRAAM from its beginning had active, semi-active and inertial reference guidance modes, with later variants adding home-on-jam capability, 2 way data-link capability (to among other things expand off-board targeting control of the weapon in flight) and GPS/INS guidance assistance.

It's a death wand.

[Zimme83]

It's still safe to say that missiles like the Meteor is better than the AMRAAM. We also know very little about the performance of the AA-12 so it would be hard to determine how good the AMRAAM is compared to what it can be expected to meet.