Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 81243 times)

Offline DaveBB

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #855 on: August 26, 2016, 04:24:11 PM »
Here's the real list of problems with the F-35.  It will be a good aircraft once they solve them

(1)Overheating problems with weapons bay.
(2)Can't open it's weapons bay at high speed.
(3)Buffets at high angle of attacks.
(4)Helmet that is supposed to allow you to see through the aircraft doesn't work.
(5)Very small internal weapons load.
(6)Wing loading too high.
(7)Major cracks forming on airframe.
(8)Poor maneuverability.
(9)High drag.
(10) Unable to supercruise.

Once these teething problems are solved, mark my words, this plane will turn out to be a winner.  Almost all planes go through initial problems when they first start production.  Like the F-16.  It's side stick controller was too sensitive.  Then wires chafed due to its extreme maneuverability and caused instrument problems.
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #856 on: August 26, 2016, 07:56:37 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:58:28 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #857 on: August 26, 2016, 09:22:21 PM »
« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 01:59:10 PM by Skuzzy »
Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #858 on: August 27, 2016, 10:39:00 AM »
What's your emotional attachment to this piece of metal and carbon fiber?

None.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #859 on: August 27, 2016, 10:39:10 AM »
Just gonna drop this here...

https://fightersweep.com/6125/6125/

I am surprised Michael Gilmore hasn't awaken with a horse head in his bed, yet.  Bravo for him.

The Marines and Air Force have lowered standards to claim IOC.   This thing is a turkey. 
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #860 on: August 27, 2016, 12:39:31 PM »
Oops.


---


But there was a catch. By the Air Force’s own reckoning, the F-35A with Block 3i software wouldn’t be able to fight in the most dangerous environments without unacceptable risk to its pilots. Where before the Air Force required that its Initial Operational Capability F-35s be capable of offensive air-to-air missions and the suppression of enemy air defenses in a heavily opposed “anti-access” environment, under the new planning the initial F-35s would be suitable only for “basic” close air support and other ground-attack missions and “limited” defense-suppression — and none of it in anti-access airspace.

To meet a deadline that Congress found acceptable, the Air Force decided to debut F-35s that it knew full well wouldn’t actually be combat-ready in any meaningful sense of the term. In May 2013, the flying branch submitted its F-35 IOC date to Congress and then, according to the history, “began the tense wait to see if the JSF program could fulfill its promises over the next three years.”

https://warisboring.com/we-have-proof-the-u-s-air-force-watered-down-the-f-35-to-avoid-embarrassment-5b4833f4d966#.sxwkusx4o

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Offline Serenity

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #861 on: August 27, 2016, 01:00:31 PM »
Here's the real list of problems with the F-35.  It will be a good aircraft once they solve them
(3)Buffets at high angle of attacks.
(4)Helmet that is supposed to allow you to see through the aircraft doesn't work.


3 is a B*%&#! The T-45 does it, and it's rather unnerving.

4 DOES work. I've actually seen it with my own eyes and used it.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #862 on: August 27, 2016, 03:29:32 PM »
Some interesting points from F-22 drivers:


http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/archive/2016/september/Pages/AirForceF35ProponentsStrikeBackatCritics.aspx

Air Force F-35 Proponents Strike Back at Critics

For close to two decades, critics have taken shots at the F-35 joint strike fighter — and they had plenty of ammunition.

Cost overruns and schedule delays piled up as it became known as the most expensive weapon system ever fielded. There were those who wondered if the Defense Department would ever see any results from its massive investment. The plan to fly it as it was developed, known as concurrency, was at one point called “acquisition malpractice” by the Defense Department’s Undersecretary of Acquisition, Technology and Logistics Frank Kendall.

But at the beginning of August, the aircraft’s largest customer, the U.S. Air Force, declared that it had reached initial operating capability, or IOC, which means battlefield commanders can call on at least one fully equipped and trained squadron to drop precision–guided weapons on enemy air defenses in contested environments.

“It’s a major milestone in the sense that it has grown up a bit. It has still got a lot of growing to do. There is still a lot of work with the avionics and interfaces as well as the software, and those go hand in hand,” said John Venable, a former F-16 pilot with more than 3,000 hours of flying time, who is now a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation.

There are key components that have yet to be integrated, including parts of the helmet’s display system, a Gatling gun and the ability to shoot Sidewinder missiles. Much of that will be part of the next block of software due in August 2017.

Meanwhile, the aircraft’s defenders such as Venable are beginning to talk about what it can do as opposed to what it can’t yet do. Pilots and tacticians are just scratching the surface when it comes to understanding the aircraft and its fifth-generation capabilities.

“When people talk about situational awareness, it is exponentially higher in this airplane than it has been in any airplane up to this point. And that is a godsend for the guys in the fighter cockpits,” he said in an interview.

Venable penned an Aug. 4 backgrounder report for the foundation in which he interviewed 31 F-35A pilots and asked them to compare their new aircraft with their previous fighters in terms of maneuverability, stealth and tactics.

He noted that fighter pilots were well known for blunt opinions and a lack of tact. As an outsider he was met with a good deal of skepticism.

“When I walked out of these [interviews] I got the gospel on what each man genuinely believed about both of his jets,” he said. Their first aircraft is the love of their life and the F-35A is “the mistress” they are unsure about. The pilots had F-15C, F-16C, F-15E and A-10 backgrounds, but none came from the F-22 community.

Maneuverability in a dogfight has been a big question mark since a leaked report in 2015 called into question the F-35A’s air-to-air performance over a fourth-generation aircraft.

Venable noted at the time of that test F-35A pilots were governed by software control laws, known as CLAWS, that limited them to three to five Gs during turns. There have been big strides since then and they are now limited to seven Gs. Ultimately, they will be allowed nine Gs. For the purpose of the survey, he asked the pilots to consider only what the aircraft can do now at seven Gs and to not speculate on how it would perform when the software no longer restricted them.

All but two of the pilots thought the F-35A outperformed his previous airplane in air-to-air combat engagements. The two who didn’t favored their old F-15Cs in the 9,000-foot perch setup, a high-altitude combat scenario.

In beyond-visual-range scenarios, they all chose the F-35. For setups where energy and maneuverability are critical to success, they chose it 80 percent of the time.

“The F-35A was not designed to be an air superiority fighter, but the pilots interviewed conveyed the picture of a jet that will more than hold its own in that environment — even with its current G and maneuver restrictions,” Venable wrote.

All of the pilots ended up saying that they would choose the F-35 over their previous jet, although Venable said that question wasn’t included in the survey. “I decided to let the numbers speak for themselves,” he said.

Two former F-22 pilots, Maj. Gen. Jeff Harrigian and Col. Max Marosko III, recently published a paper with the Mitchell Institute about the F-35A that they hoped would “demystify things that have been written in publications,” said Harrigian, who directs the F-35A integration office.

The F-35A “allows you to understand where you need to be in the next three to five minutes, where you need to move assets, and to have that battlefield situational awareness to make decisions quicker and better than we could in any other legacy airplane. And that is fundamental to the platform and what it brings to the fight,” he said at a panel discussion where he presented the report, “Fifth Generation Air Combat: Maintaining the Joint Force Advantage.”

The integrated avionics and sensors autonomously fuse and prioritize data for the pilot to reduce his workload “allowing him to focus more on the mission as opposed to managing sensors,” he said.

He also lauded the aircraft’s stealth. “There is nothing like running an intercept and then at the end of the day realizing that no one ever saw you.”

Venable said he walked on an F-35A wings in his street shoes, and it didn’t harm the protective coating that helps provide the plane’s stealth. He could never do that on an F-22, which is known for its sensitive coating. The tougher stealth layer will allow it to be stationed in more austere settings in harsher environments.

“You can park them out in the sun in the open. …  Now you’re starting to talk about a real fighter that has the real potential to do what you need to do in a real-world environment,” Venable said.

Harrigian said: “As we look at operations in highly contested environments with modern long-range [surface-to-air missiles], increased air-to-air threats and the capability the threat has these days to move targets and make them mobile … the only aircraft that can get there are modern, fifth-generation aircraft.”

In a fourth-gen fighter, “you might get in there and release the bomb, but the odds of escaping are not high,” he said. “In our minds, it comes down to the ability to kill and survive.” The F-35A has robust defenses against electronic warfare and cyber attacks, but he could not go into details.

The helmet with its internal displays as opposed to a heads-up cockpit display is a real-game changer, both Harrigian and Venable said.

There is still a lot of complex work to be done on the helmet, which is expected to be finished in time for the next software upgrade. Meanwhile, the current display that fuses the aircraft’s three main sensors — the radar warning receiver, distributed aperture infrared search and track system, and the passive coherent location system — finds and identifies friendly and enemy aircraft and provides unparalleled situational awareness, Venable said.

Harrigian said: “The F-35 [helmet’s] tremendous capability is really a first step toward providing that asymmetric advantage to the pilot with that situational awareness it provides for communications, navigation and identification capabilities.”

In air combat mode, when the “world is swirling around the pilot,” who may be turning 15 to 30 degrees per second with many aircraft flying around in different directions, keeping track of just the friendly jets is a big challenge, Venable said.

“What this aircraft does is to look in any direction and see who is there and you’ll be able to tell who is a good guy and who is a bad guy,” he said.

Harrigian added that the ability to allow F-35A pilots to be mission commanders will be unmatched.

Air Force tacticians such as Harrigian and Marosko, who is serving as deputy director of air and cyberspace operations at Headquarters Pacific Air Forces in Hawaii, are just beginning to look at not only what the F-35A can do, but what it will be able to accomplish flying in teams with fourth-gen aircraft as well as joint forces and allies.

The F-35A will have to address threats covering an entire spectrum from relatively permissive environments found in Central Command’s area of operations to more contested scenarios found in the Pacific Command, Marosko said.

For example, the F-35A could be used to destroy enemy air defenses to create pockets of permissive airspace in which fourth-generation aircraft can operate, he said.   

Venable said most of the current F-35A pilots have only 100 to 300 hours of flight time on the aircraft, which isn’t much. “These guys aren’t getting out and standing their airplane on its tail. They’re not understanding the nuances and they really need to be given that opportunity with a lot of flying time to go out there and max fly the airplane.”

Harrigian said: “There is more work that needs to be done with this.  … When you give this stuff to airmen: get out of the way. They’ve got it.”

Venable said: “This airplane is not out of the woods. It still has some growing to do and the growing pains are still going to be with us for awhile.”

When the Defense Department decided to do concurrent development, it chose a path of greater risk, he said. He pushed back at the notion that concurrency was acquisition malpractice, although there were lessons to be learned from the program’s mistakes.

The years between when the F-35 was conceived and today were ones of rapid technological advancement. To have frozen the requirements in place in 2001 would have resulted in a fighter that was outdated as soon as it was fielded, he argued in his report. The Royal Air Force’s Tornado F-3 is one example. The technology that went into it was mature, there were no technological risks, and therefore no technological leaps. It was virtually obsolete as soon as it was fielded. The Defense Department had that program in mind when it chose concurrency.

“The risks of developmental delays and cost overruns were accepted to mitigate an even bigger risk: that the United States would field its own version of the Tornado F-3,” he wrote.

That “riskier acquisition strategy had to pay off dividends … and what the payoff is — from what the pilots told me — is an extraordinary fighter,” he said.

One lesson to takeaway is leadership. The program’s first 18 years saw nine directors. The military’s habit of swapping out program managers every three years to accommodate officer career paths just doesn’t work with a long, complex acquisition process, he added.

After the Defense Department recognized this, it installed Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan as the director, and has kept him in the position.

“The single biggest requirement [for a program like the F-35] becomes competent, long-tenured leadership,” Venable wrote.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #863 on: August 27, 2016, 04:46:46 PM »
Guess the helmet STILL isn't finished.

Thought so.


Derp.

The airplane cannot enter anti-access environments, the gun is unusable--and will be for at least three more years--and we won't even know if the weapons are deployable for about eight more years.

Sounds like a bargain.

Wouldn't surprise me if in ten years we are flying them from the factory right to the boneyard at DM.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #864 on: August 27, 2016, 04:52:03 PM »
EIGHTEEN *YEARS* and we still have nothing of useful value except as a trainer.

We managed to win WWII in less than four.

 :huh
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #865 on: August 28, 2016, 10:03:38 PM »
All of the pilots ended up saying that they would choose the F-35 over their previous jet, although Venable said that question wasn’t included in the survey. “I decided to let the numbers speak for themselves,” he said.

LOL that is epic-ally funny!

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #866 on: August 29, 2016, 12:56:36 PM »
Some good news  :aok

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/928771/f-35-surges-forward-with-record-breaking-weapons-tests.aspx

F-35 surges forward with record-breaking weapons tests

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AFNS) -- The F-35 Integrated Test Force here recently completed 25 missions comprised of 12 weapons delivery accuracy and 13 weapon separation tests as part of a monthlong weapons firing test surge.

Historically, WDAs take place once a month given the myriad of coordination required. The highest number previously accomplished in a month was three in November 2014 during block 2B software testing.

Maj. Charles Trickey, interim director of operations for the 461st Flight Test Squadron, flew the final mission of the surge Aug. 17. The mission was completed at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, where F-35 Lightning IIs shot two advanced medium-range, air-to-air missiles at a QF-4 drone.

“Some of these WDAs were particularly challenging events,” Trickey said. He said the final mission was actually the fourth attempt to complete this test. “It was really cool to see the satisfaction of the team, and to get that feeling of accomplishment after doing something that challenging.”

All told, the F-35 ITF deployed 30 weapons in 31 days, which included 12 WDAs and 13 separations, according to Trickey.

“Thirty separations in 31 days; that’s never been done before in flight test,” said Capt. Brett Tillman, a flight test engineer with the 461st FTS. “The fact that we could get everything together to do that number of separations in that few days is pretty amazing.”

These successful test events -- performed using the F-35’s newest block 3F software -- demonstrated the accuracy of the aircraft. Five of the test events featured dropping multiple weapons.

The effort for this surge wasn’t limited to the F-35 test team. There were a number of units outside the F-35 ITF that put in extra effort and time to make the surge successful, including Edwards AFB airfield and tanker operations, the 416th FTS and the F-35 Joint Program Office.

The F-35 weapons test team was given exclusive use of the Sea Test Range, an instrumented Pacific Ocean test area off the central coast near Point Mugu, California. Tests were also conducted at the U.S. Navy’s China Lake weapons range in California and White Sands missile range.

“The amount of coordination and teamwork from the ITF and the outside organizations to enable this is unprecedented,” Tillman said. “The work these team members put in is amazing. It couldn’t have been done without them.”

During this surge period, a total of 30 weapons were dropped or fired, including the joint direct attack munition, AIM-120 advanced medium-range, air-to-air missile, GPS-guided 250-pound small diameter bomb, AIM-9X Sidewinder supersonic, heat-seeking, air-to-air missile and GPS laser-guided munition.

“The WDAs rely on the full capability of the F-35 -- multiple sensors, navigation, weapons envelope, mission planning, data links and inter-agency range scheduling -- all working in sequence to put steel on target,” said Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan, an F-35 program executive officer. “This was a tremendous effort by the F-35 test team. They surged and worked seven days a week for more than a month to expend 30 ordnance and advanced weapons testing. This testing has moved us that much closer to delivering the full F-35 capability to warfighters within the next two years.”

The F-35 is a multi-role, next-generation fighter that combines advanced stealth with speed, agility and a 360-degree view of the battlespace. The F-35 will form the backbone of air combat superiority for decades to come and replace legacy tactical fighter fleets with dominant air-to-air and air-to-ground capabilities to deter and defeat potential adversaries.

The Marine Corps declared the F-35B combat ready, or initial operating capability, in July 2015; the Air Force declared F-35A IOC on Aug. 2; and the Navy intends to attain F-35C IOC in 2018. More than 200 F-35s have flown in excess of 66,000 fleet-wide hours, with over 300 F-35 pilots and 3,000 maintainers trained to operate and support this next-generation aircraft.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #867 on: August 29, 2016, 04:36:54 PM »
Some good news  :aok

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/928771/f-35-surges-forward-with-record-breaking-weapons-tests.aspx

F-35 surges forward with record-breaking weapons tests

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AFNS) -- The F-35 Integrated Test Force here recently completed 25 missions comprised of 12 weapons delivery accuracy and 13 weapon separation tests as part of a monthlong weapons firing test surge.d 3,000 maintainers trained to operate and support this next-generation aircraft.


Wow.  A whole 25 missions.   No data on accuracy.  No data on conditions of the test.  Nothing.  Just "we dropped a lot of stuff" Air Force PR spin.

They're in trouble with this program and they know it.  This is a desperate attempt to shift the narrative.

Among the gullible it appears to be working...    :huh

Back in the real world...


http://fortune.com/2016/08/28/lockheed-f35-delivery-pentagon/

The gun won't work because of a "software issue".    :rofl
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 04:38:31 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #868 on: August 29, 2016, 04:44:19 PM »
Here's an airplane with a gun that actually WORKS.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcm42DGt8CE

 :aok

The Joint Strike Failure may not even have a gun when it leaves the deck.   Sounds like a good idea to me.    :headscratch:
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 04:46:10 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #869 on: September 01, 2016, 11:27:11 AM »
Go Navy!   :aok

« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 11:30:36 AM by GScholz »
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