Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"

[Arlo]

To Brooke's credit, history is always written by the victors.  Point in fact, I thought the devil term was reference to Japanese fighter pilots, not German.  In retrospect, they called it "two planes, one pilot".

I consider myself an amateur historian, like an amateur astronomer. I'm about the facts. What do we know. What are the sources. What do other sources say that contradict or support. And can anyone else validate or dispute the findings (which is actually a good thing). Similar to the scientific method of research.

Armchair historians are however, more about speculation, hypothesis, insight, and theory, rarely sticking to the facts. (Yes, that is an acronmyn for something. s.h...) 

So, who are armchair historians, and who are amateur historians?

I waffle back and forth. I'm studying to lose the amateur status and get paid for it, though. I may lecture from an armchair, however (if I lecture).

[GScholz]

Let me rephrase.  You guys wouldn't accept me claiming that the following is accurate because I think so:  Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or "gabelshwanz teufel", and one or more WWII Germans did call the P-38 a "gableshwanz teufel".

I think that was resolved like on page 2.

[Brooke]

I think that was resolved like on page 2.

Yes.

What also has been resolved is that there are folks here who don't accept as accurate those same statements even if there are three references backing them up.

Yet their counter argument has no references.

You see, I am pointing out a double standard (or worse than a double standard) being employed.

[GScholz]

The veracity of your references is being questioned, and rightfully so.

[Brooke]

GScholz and RJH57:

Whether or not we agree on this particular topic, you guys obviously have a lot of enthusiasm and energy for WWII aviation.

I know that this is not on topic, but it occurred to me, and while I am thinking of it:  would you guys be willing to fly in the next Scenario, The Battle of the Dnieper?

Scenarios take more commitment than the Main Arena, and participants tend to be people who are more passionate about WWII aviation.  That seems like you guys, but I don't think I've seen you in scenarios before.

What do you say?  Are you willing to give it a go?

More details are here:
http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm

Also, everyone else is very welcome to play in it also.  We love getting more players into Scenarios.

[Brooke]

PS:  There are no fork-tailed devils in this one.

[Brooke]

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming on The Argument Channel.

[Mister Fork]

And now back to our regularly scheduled programming on The Argument Channel.

Yup

[RJH57]

... uncovered the journal of a German lieutenant from the Herman Goering Division. The journal contained the following entry: "The Black Devils are all around us every time we come into the line. We never hear them come."

He was probably referring to the tough & hardy Moroccan soldiers (called Goumiers by the French) who were adept at night infiltration and using their knifes to kill. They were much feared by the Germans in Italy. Fyi, German paratroopers (Fallschirmjäger) came to be known as the "green devils" by the Allied forces they fought against.

[bustr]

If you look back in American literature up into the 40's and Hollywood movie dialog starting with the first talkies. America over used devil. "Those devils", Red Devils for Indians. Black Devils for jungle flicks. Brown devils for other parts of the world. Yellow devils for Asians. Devil Dogs, Devils Brigade, devil women, jungle devils..... Because our nation was very Christian and the devil held a powerful position in the American psyche. American screen writers and writers in general at the time tended to project American cultural constructs onto other countries when they tried to write about them. The closest country in using devil like we did was England.

You will need to investigate the German culture as projected through it's common language of the 30s-40s to see any head way with this.

[RJH57]

America over used devil....You will need to investigate the German culture

Germans frequently use devil ("Teuffel") to describe someone or something as unruly, hard to manage, devlish. Also, where we use the word "hell" as in "go to hell", Germans say "geh zum Teuffel" (go to the devil). I have no doubt that Germans often used the word "Teuffel" during the war to describe a fierce adversary or combat.

[Brooke]

(Image removed from quote.)

Yup

  

Am I the blue guy or the other one? 

[GScholz]

GScholz and RJH57:

Whether or not we agree on this particular topic, you guys obviously have a lot of enthusiasm and energy for WWII aviation.

I know that this is not on topic, but it occurred to me, and while I am thinking of it:  would you guys be willing to fly in the next Scenario, The Battle of the Dnieper?

Scenarios take more commitment than the Main Arena, and participants tend to be people who are more passionate about WWII aviation.  That seems like you guys, but I don't think I've seen you in scenarios before.

What do you say?  Are you willing to give it a go?

I love scenarios, but no can do. I've just moved and most of my gaming gear is still in storage. I probably won't be back until AH3 is out the door anyways. But thank you for the invite.


....


Now back to your scheduled...

[GScholz]

Oh I see it's in June? If so then I might be back by then. We'll see!

[Randy1]

Try to think of this from a practical stand point.

I keep thinking the descriptive word "Fork" is questionable when describing a P-38.  Does any English source use fork tail when describing a P-38?

Note when searching other uses of the German word, you find "fork tail snapper."  Fork, like "Fork in the road."  and "fork tailed snapper" is a "Y" shape.   I just don't think fork would be used as a common descriptive word for the twin booms in any language.  One German might have used that description, but "The Germans . . ." as a whole, is very questionable.

Is there a German plane with a tail similar to the P-38? If so, how is it described?